This thread, dedicated to that question might help. V8-60 Tube Axle and Split Wishbones: bad idea...or it'll be fine?
Sorry to spoil everyones fun speculating as to how the 37 tube axles were made, but here are some facts If you do a google search on "hollow front axle patent", in 10 seconds you will find US1873453 Its much the same as the Bugatti hollow axle solution (which I think Bugatti copied from Fiat), but smarter and more high volume production orientated..
I thought the whole thing was a bit too long to post here. As said, its really easy to google it and find the complete patent,.but here it is anyway: Our invention relates to method of making a tubular front axle for automobiles and the like. In automotive engineering, the tubular axle construction of the general type set out in the co-pending application of Edmund C. Mogford and George Spatta, Serial No. 363,- 362, filed May 15, 1929, has made a distinct improvement because of the material reduction in unsprung Weight accomplished through its use. The instant application, which may be considered as an improvement upon the above mentioned copending application, provides a tubular axle of the reversed Elliot type, in which the knuckle piece is forged integral with the axle proper, a construction Which results in a further reduction in the Weight of the axle and consequent reduction in the unsprung Weight to be carried thereby. It provides a construction less expensive both as to material and as to labor cost. In the manufacture of axles Within the teachings of the present invention, We employ certain essential parts of the method of construction outlined in the copending application of Edmund C. Mogford and George Spatta, Serial No. 409,094, filed November 22, 1929, modifying the specific method therein disclosed to produce the axles forming thesubject-matter of the instant application. In the construction of axles of this type, a piece of seamless or welded steel tubing of outside diameter and length determined by the size of the particular axle being constructed and having a wall thickness of approximately three-sixteenths of an inch, is used as a blank in theforming of' the axle. The operations performed in the-fabrica-A tion of the axle include locally heatingvthev blank in the region at which the spring supporting means is to be attached, and vthen upsetting this portion to increase its Wall Vthickness by forcing metal inward, this operation being performed Without altering the outside diameter of theblank. In the manufacture of a particular axle within the teach'- ings of thisinvention, this operation includes a simultaneous forming of bosses or ears on the outside of the axle, which bosses together With the surface of the blank, form flat faces on the top and bottom sides of the axle, which faces are subsequently drilled and serve as abutments for the collar on the sha-nk and for the nut of a bracket employed to attach the spring to the axle. This feature is optional. v The blank is then heated at its end section and upset to thicken the Walls of that section, the upsetting operation being preferably performed in a pluralityof steps, each of Which moves metal to the inside of the blank Without increasing its outside diameter. The last of these upsetting operations closes the end section of the blank, that is, the Walls of the blank have been increased sufficiently to cause their inside surfaces to meet at the end of the blank. This operation is followed by a swaging operation Which provides a slight taper on the end section of the blank, this operation also pressing the abutting interior Walls of that section together in position for a subsequent forging operation. The plurality lofupsett'ng operation and the swaging operation performed on the end section of the blank are designed to be performed with a single heating of that section, that is, the operations are performed with sufficient rapidity that all may be completed before the blank has had time to cool down to such a temperature that it -must be rehe-ated for the successful operation. 1 t The end section of the blank is then reheated to forging temperature, and squeezed to form it to a definite taper, and then coined to form the knuckle piece of a reversed Elliot type axle, this squeezing and'forming operation compressing the abutting surfaces of performance of the the inside walls of the end sections together to form that section into a solid integral mass. They may be Welded together if desired. 1 The coning operation which forms the ex' terior surfaces ofthe knuckley piece may` be performedby any type of suitable dies,'Which f axle throughout its entire length and quench-- ing it in a suitable medium to temper it to the proper degree of hardness, the quenching preferably being performed while the blank is gripped in dies'whichform the axle to its required shape, as 'disclosed in our copendingl application. vThe axle formed in this manner is light, strong and of pleasing appearance. In certain instances .Where the spring pad that is to be attached to the axle and to form a seat for the spring, is of the type which completely encircles the tubular portion of the axle, it will be unnecessary to thicken the walls of the tube beneath the spring seat, and wetherefore contemplate omitting this operation in the fabrication of this type of axle. Now, to acquaint-'those skilled in the art with the teachings of this invention, reference is made to the accompanying drawings in which the method of forming'a preferred embodiment of the invention is shown by way of example, and in which y: Figure 1 is a cross-sectional view` taken lengthwise through the tubular blank at the completion of the upsetting of the walls of the blank beneath the spring support; Figure 2 is a Cross-sectional View of Figure 1 taken along the line 2-2 looking in the direction of arrows and showing bosses raised in the outside surface of the blank to form v flat faces on the top and bottom sides of the axle; e Figure 3 is a cross-sectional view through .I the blank after the performance of the first step in the upsetting operation of the end of the blank; l Figure 4 is a cross-sectional view taken through the blank at the completion of the second step in the upsetting operation; Figure 5 is a similar view at the completion of the thirdV step in the upsetting operation; Figure 6vis a similar view taken at. the completion of the swaging operation on the closed` section of an axle after the completion of the coining, trimming and forgning operations; f Figure 10 is a cross-sectional view through a blank after the completion of the squeezing and coining operations to form an axle of a slightly dierent type from ,the axle shown in the foregoing gures; f Figure 11 is a plan view'of 4a completed axle'of the type shown in Figure 10 with the `spring pads mounted thereon; Figure 12 is an elevationalview of the axle shown in Figure 11; and Figure 13 is a cross-sectional view of the axle shown in Figure 12 taken along the line 13-13 looking in the direction of the arrows. Referring to the drawings, now, in more detail, the front axle is made from a piece of seamless tubing of a diameter dependent upon the particular type of axle being constructed and of a length suiiicient to supply the metal that is required in the fabrication of the axle.l In the axle shown inthe draw ings, which is shown by way of example, thel tube is two and one-half inches in diameter and die are formed so that the walls of the blank 1 are thickened by moving metal inward to form an inner ring 3, this operation being performed without decreasing the erimeter of the outside diameter of the lank 1. In certain types of front axles, particularly those in which the spring on which the chassis of the vehicle is supported runs parallel to the longitudinal axis of the axle, it is customary to attach the` spring to the axle by a hanger which has a bolt forgedl integral with it. This bolt projects through the axle itself, and is held thereon by a nut and washer on the underside of the axle. v To mount this type of a housing, thevup-v setting'operation which thickens the. walls at the point 2 is also employed to form bosses 4 on the outside surface of the tubular blank,l these bosses and the peripheral surface of the f blank together forming flat surfaces 5 on` the vblank at the same time that we upset thatA blankto thicken its Walls as shown at 3 in Figure 1. In this embodiment of our invention the perimeter of the blank is actually increased by the upsetting operation, metal being gathered through a shortening of the I blank to form this increased perimeter and to The increased thickness of the Walls supplies suiii-y simultaneously thicken the walls. cientstrength to compensate for the drilling of the tubulardhousing to permit the insertion of the hanger bolt therein. In certain other types of axles manufactured within the teachings of this invention, a spring seat that has arms which completely encircle the axle, is employed, in which case it is unnecessary to upset the blank` under the spring seat to thicken its walls since the strength of the thin wall tubing itself issu-.iiicient to resist the strain placed on it during the service of the axle. A spring pad as described in our copending application, Serial No. 409,095, may be employed. Upon the completion of the upsetting operation just described, the end sections of the axle are then heated to forging temperature, and the blank is then clamped in a suitable die preparatory to` upsetting these end 'sections to shorten them and thicken their walls. Since the amount of metal to be moved is more than can be successfully moved in a single operation, we propose to perform this upsetting of the arm in a plurality of steps, all of which is accomplished during one heating 'of the section, that is, the successive steps are, performed with suiiicient rapidity and with the loss of only so much heat that all may be completed before the blank has had time to cool down suiiiciently to necessitate its being reheated to the proper forging temperature. y In Figure 1, we show a cross-sectional view of the blank after the first step in the end upsetting operation has been performed. Considering the arm 6 as the entire portion the blank extending beyond the spring seat 2, of this arm is first shortened by moving the extreme outer end of it inward, the metal so disturbed being confined against outward escape and owing inward to form the thickened walls 7. It will be noted that the outside diameter of the arm 6 at the point adjacent this increased wall thickness, is the same as that of the original blank 1, that is, the operation is performed by moving met-al inwardly rather than outwardly. Upon completion of the operation shownsection, this operation also being performedl without affecting the outside diameter pf the blank. The third step in this upsetting operation moves the metal in the end of the arm 6 so that the walls-of the enlargement 9 on the inside thereof abut each other.- The blank is then moved to a swaging die i which engages the outer surface of the arm 6 and forms the end of it into a tapered portion 11, shown in Figure 6. This tapering may be on a circular section but preferably ,employed in the performance of this end upsetting operation, are not of the essence ofV the present invention and have been omitted from the drawings as unnecessary. i By the use of properly designed dies and punches, the step in the upsetting and swaging operation shown in Fi ures 3 to 6, inclusive, can be performed be ore the blank has hada chance to cool down suliciently to necessitate its being reheated, although the blank, when swaged, as shown in Figure 6, will not be sufficiently hot to properly weld the abutting surfaces 10 of the lug orenlargement 9. The blank is then reheated to bring its end portion to the proper lforging temperature, and squeezed and coined referably in a .three part die to form the knuc le piece of' reversed Elliot type axle on the end of the arm 6. In Figures 7, 8 and l9, we show a blank at the completion of these operations. The squeezing operation, which can be best seen 1n Figure 8, forces the metal in the lug 9 inward, pressing or if desired welding the above edges 10 to ether so that the end of the blank is close by an' integrally formed mass of metal. The coining operation, which forms the knuckle piece 12 is performed by a suitably shaped die preferably comprising two jaws moving laterally against the liattened sides to grip die neck and an endwise movable jaw forced`against the end 13 of the arm, this die shortening lthe distance between the inner and outer faces of the lug of metal 9 by which the end of the blank is now closed. This operation also increases the height of the knuckle piece 12 so that it extends above the arm 6 of the blank, and forms flanges 14 and 15 on the lower and upper edges of this knuckle piece, respectively. The bosses 16 and 17 are formed in this same operation, serving as parallel faces against which the head and nut,of a through bolt or pinch pin abut, the through bolt being employed to lock the spindle bolt in the knuckle piece in accordance with established practice. The dies employed to coin and squeeze Lthe arms of the axle are separating dies so that the finished product can be removed from them, and as such are apt to leave flashe of metal projecting outward from the surfac s of the finished product, which flashes are removed hy a trimming operation. The axle is completed by operations performed in similar sequence on its opposite ends, and when so finished, is heated throughout its entire length in a suitable'furnace. The final shaping of theI axle and heat treatment of it are performed after this heating, los preferably in a device of the kind disclosed in the copending application of Edmund C. Mogford and George Spatta, Serial No. 409,096, iiled Novem er 22, 1929, although any other preferred arrangement may be used in lieu thereof. The axle' shownv in Figures 7 to 9, inclusive, is formed as an arc of a circle by this treating and forming operation, the radius of that circle being substantially greater than the overall length of the finlshed axle. This finished axle is of the Ford type. In Figures 10 to 13, inclusive, we disclose an axle of a slightly different type which can be made in accordance with the teaching of the present invention. The tubular blank from which this axle is made may be of substantially the same dimensions as mentioned heretofore, but since this- ,axle employs a spring seat having a fiat upper face 21 and embracing arms 22, which arms practicallyy completely encircle the tubular member 23 of the axle, it is not necessary to upset the metal beneath this spring support 20 since the arm when welded to it as shown at^24 sufficiently reinforces it to enable it to withstand the stresses placed on it during the service of the axle. Such preliminary thickening may however be performed where the customer de-- sires the same. y The end sections of the blank are heated and upset in the manner set forth in Figures 3 to 6, inclusive, and-the blank so formed. is then squeezed and coined to form the knuckle piece 24 and taper arms 25 shown in Figure 10. The metal at the neck or junction of the knuckle piece and arm of the axle being shaped into a sli htly different shape in this embodiment of t e invention andin the one and Spatta., the completed axle having a main part 23 and arms 26 which'are bent upward therefrom on a vrelatively short radius, with Y ,strong tol easily withstand Vthe-shocks and the axis of the knuckle piece 24 finally disposed at an angle to the axis of the main portion 23 of the axle by a relatively short bend in the neck 25. It will be observed that in both of the modiiications of myinvention disclosed herein, the wall-thickness of the arms of the axle increases as the outward end of the axl'e is ap- `proached, as will be seen at points 3G' in Figures 7 to 9 and 31 in- Figures l0 to 12, yinclusive. This increase in the wall thickness of the arm reinforces it to makeit suiciently stresses to which the' arm will be subjected during the use of the axle. Axles constructed in accordance with the foregoing operations are materially lighter than either the solid forged I-beam axles commonly used heretofore and also lighterthan those applications. because of the elimination of the for ed knuckle piece which is inserted in a soc et formed in the end of the arm as disclosed in Obviously, the invention disclosed herein may be employed to form l axles of the types other than illustrated, andthe illustratlons are ma de by wa-yof example only and We are not to be limited to the specie details disclosed. While we haveshown the upsetting o f the end or arm section of the blank as performed in three upsetting and one swaging o eration, obviously, a greater or lesser num er of steps can be employed as required to shape the metal to the requirements en the particular axle then being manufactured. The knuckle pieces shown in the drawing are of the reverse Elliot type, it being obvious that other types of knuckle pieces may also be forged integral with the tubular axle within the teaching of my invention. Having thus described our invention what we consider new and desire to have protected by Letters .Patent is pointed out in the appended claims. v.Whatisl claimed is 1. The method of forging a tubular front axle from a blank of tubing which comprises, upsetting-the blank at a. point spaced back from its end to thicken its walls at the point of maximum stress,upsetting the end to thicken the walls and thereby close the end of the blank', swaging the end to taper it, squeezing the end to form a tapered arm of oblong cross section, coining the end to form the knuckle piece of a reverse Elliot type axle, and heat treating and forming the axle. 2. The methodof -forging a tubular front axle from a blank of tubing which comprises, upsetting the blank at a point spaced back from its end to thicken its walls at the point of maximum stress, and to form fiat faces on opposite sides of the tubing, upsetting the end to thicken the Wall and thereby close the end of the blank, swaging the end to taper 1t, squeezingthe end to form a tapered arm of loblongcross section, coining the/ end to formthe knuckle piece of a reverse Elliot type axle, and heat treating andforming the ax e. p 3; The method of forging a tubular front axle from a blank of tubing which comprises, `upsetting the blank at a point spaced back v yfrom its end to thicken its walls at the point of maximum stress, and to form flat faces on opposite sides of the tubing, upsetting the end to thicken the walls and thereby close theend of the blank, swaging the .end to arm of oblong cross section, coining the end to form the .knuckle piece of a reverse Elliot type axle, disposed wlth its axisintersecting ytaper it, squeezingthe en'd to forma tapered y the planes of said flat faces, and heat treating and forming the axle. 4. The method of forging a tubular front axle from a blank of tubing which comprises, upsetting the blank at a point spaced back close the end of the blank, swaging the end to ,les taper it, squeezing the end to form a tapered arm of oblong cross section, coining the end to form the knuckle piece of a reverse Elliot vtype axle, and heat treating and forming the axle. 5. The method of forging a tubular front axle from a blank of tubing which comprises, upsetting the. blank at a point spaced back from its end to thicken its Walls at the point of maximum stress and to form parallel flat faces on opposite sides of the tubing, upsetting the end to thicken the Walls and thereby close the end of the blank, swaging the end to taper it, squeezing the end to form a tapered arm of oblong cross section, coining the end to form the knuckle piece of a reverse Elliot type axle dispose-d with its axis at right angles to the planes of said flat faces, and heat treating and forming the axle. 6. The method of forging a tubular front axle from a blank of tubing which comprises, upsetting the blank at a point spaced back from its end to thicken its Walls at the point of maximum stress by forcing metal inward of the tubing, and to simultaneously form spring supports by forcing metal outward, upsetting the end to thicken the Walls and thereby close the end of the blank, swaging the end to taper it, squeezing the end to form a tapered arm of oblong cross section, coining the end to form the knuckle piece of a reverse Elliot type axle, and heat treating and forming the axle. 7. The method of forging tubular front axles which comprises, upsettingthe end of a thin Walled tube in a plurality of steps the last of which closes the end of the tube without affecting its outside diameter, swaging the closed end of the tube to taper it, squeezing the end of the tube to Weld the closed end Walls together and forming the closed end into a knuckle piece. - 8. The method of forging tubular front axles which comprises, upsetting the end of a thin walled tube in a plurality of steps, each of which thickens the tube Walls by gathering metal on the inside of it Without increasing its outside dimension, the last of said steps substantially closing the end of the tube Without affecting its outside diameter, swaging the closed end of the tube to taper it,` squeezing the end of the tube to close the end Walls together and forming the closed end into a knuckle piece. 9. The method of forging a tubular front axle from a piece of tubing which includes the following steps, viz., locally heating the tubing at a point spaced back from its end, upsetting the heated portion to thicken its walls and to form a spring support, heating the .end of the tube, upsetting the end to thicken its wall sufficiently to close the end of the tubing, swaging a taper on the end of it to seat the thickened walls, reheating the end section of the tubing, squeezing the end to form it in to a tapered arm and to Weld the thickened Walls together, coining the end to form the knuckle piece of a reverse Elliot type axle, trimming the end section, and heat treating and forming the axle. 10. The method of forging a tubular front axle from a piece of tubing which includes the following steps, viz., locally heating the tubing at a point spaced back from its end, upsetting the heated portion to thicken its walls and to form a spring support, heating the end of the tube, upsetting the end to thicken its wall sufficiently to close the end of the tubing, swaging a taper on the end of it to seat the thickened Walls, reheating the end section of the tubing, squeezing theend to form it into a tapered arm of oblong section and to Weld the thickened Walls together, coining the tapered section to form the knuckle piece of a reverse Elliot type axle, trimming the knuckle piece, and heat treating and forming the axle. 11. The method of forming a tubular axle, which comprises providing a steel tube of substantially uniform cross-section throughout its length, heating an end portion of said tube, confining the outside of the heated portion, repeatedly upsetting the end until a substantial portion of the tube is solid, and shaping the solid end to provide bearings for stub axle knuckles. l 12. The method of forming a tubular axle which comprises providing a steel tube of substantially uniform cross-section throughout its length and of greater length than required for the finished axle, heating a substantial end portion of said tube, repeatedly upsetting the end of said tube until the end portion of the tube is solid for an appreciable length, swaging the tube so that lthe body of the tube tapers gradually to the s old end. and forging the solid end to provide bearing portions for stub axle members. 13. The method of forming a tubular axle which comprises providing a steel tube of greater length than required for the finished axle,heating a substantial portion of the tube end, repeatedly upsetting said end until the" substantially uniform crosssection through-I out the lengthv and of greater length than is required for the finished axle, heating an end portion of the tube, repeatedly upsettlng .said end portion until solid for av predetermined extent, forging the solid end tothe desired shape, and thereafter. repeating the above operations in connection with the opposite end ofthe axle. In witness whereof, wevhereunto subscribe our names this 1st da of April, 1930.
Mogford covers Ford and Nonford mounting issues in his patent. Pretty sure this is external, not relating to Ford. Patent 1876903 is a Ford patent applied for in 1930, NOT exactly the production axle of '37-40 type (note entirely different mounting) but with some of same approaches...like the welding of forged slug to tube. Ford, remember, was the leading developer of automated machine electric welding for high strength stuff. I have not yet found the actual Ford stuff on the production format of this thing...quite possibly there isn't one, because it is likely that the modes for the mounting slug for the perch pin were applications of known tech and not patentable... Just another piece of info, not total coverage. By the way, there was a Euro Ford version of the tube axle for the Model 62...I think the book with the history bits on the axle said it had more of an oval shape to the tube part, so another variant that was sent out for beta type testing like we did here in '38-40. (basically, the 1930 patent axle has a keyed internal slug that extends in to reinforce the area where clamp for perch goes...I think later they just drilled the slug as in regular axle and welded everything up tight.)
Bruce, So your thinking there was welding involved in the making of the v8-60 tube axles? ive looked at mine pretty close and could never see any welds (other than the one style of tube axle that has the add on perch peices) jeff
Here are some pics of the one I polished. There is a ridge on the bottom from the forging process, you can see the lines and discoloration in the shot through the bone mount. It was some how rolled and welded, or fused if you will into the gentle teardrop shape. To add more to the mystery it's not smooth inside? How the ends were made is beyond my grasp.
Cool so they werent made with seemless tubing. Im sure the ends were forged in the way the patent explains, that why there is a hole in the end, which is just the hole in the tubing technically, if it was seperate peice added to the tube there surely wouldnt be a hole in the end.
From the patent papers: "The axle formed in this manner is light, strong and of pleasing appearance." So confirming what many have noted, the original patent application tells us that it is a pleasing appearing part. Also from the patent, which kind of implies that they were thinking of Ford applications: "The axle shown in Figures 7 to 9, inclusive, is formed as an arc of a circle by this treating and forming operation, the radius of that circle being substantially greater than the overall length of the finished axle. This finished axle is of the Ford type."
I own 5 Ford tube axles. 2 I purchased several years ago. $200.00 each. last year purchased a 40 Ford chassis with one. $500.00. sold most of it. Then the axle was free. Recently purchased one from Calif. for $500.00. last month purchased a perfect one at the Charlotte Goodguys $100.00. Only the 2nd one I have ever seen at a swap meet. I also own one of the 1" drop lookalike Super Bells. I also have 2 hot rods with the Mopar tube axles. I have a hot rod with a Willys axle. Now thats another beauty. I used up 2 Ford tube axles in circle track cars back in the 60's. Guess I'll do a thread. " Front axles--NO 32 heavies or cookie cutters allowed"
I just saw 4 of them at the swap meet at Turkey Run. One vendor had one for $650 and another vendor had 3 at $600 each. It sure makes the one I bought in the 60's attached to a 32 pickup for $15 look mighty good ! Wish I had kept it. Don
More from the just wondering department... in 7 pages now not a word has been said about using bones with a tube axle. Most of the HAMB if full of rather polarizing advice not to do that with tube axles. So what makes this axle so "flexible" (ha ha) to the situation. The only visual difference I can see is perhaps the angle that the bones are mounted in the axle - compared to a newer dropped tube axle where the perch bolts might be slightly more vertical? Thoughts? Gary Sadly, my 60 hp 37 Fordor sedan had a beam axle so it's not hanging on the garage wall right now awaiting my next build. I was always told the 60 hp motor weighed a lot less than the 85 and, when combined with other weight saving items like the front axle, the car should get better mileage than the 85. That's the way the 60 hp engined cars were advertised, as economy cars. But it had so little power for a still too a heavy car, that the whole deal was a flop and as you all know the 60 was only made for a few years.
A couple of years ago I bought a V8-60 axle for a project I was planning, from a pal on another board for super-low bucks; he was shedding some treasures to fund a current project of his own. The axle is a stunner, as close to NOS as one could hope for. So far I've been able to resist my natural predilection to subjecting it to the polishing belts and make it even prettier than when it began life. Good thing, because the direction of my project took a turn mandating IFS rather than live-axle "buggy-spring" suspension on the nose of my ride. For all that, this particular V8-60 axle will remain where it is now, until I can concoct another appropriate application for it . . . or until the pal who sold it to me has need for it again.
I have a V8-60 complete drum-to-drum front axle (minus the consumable brake bits) I will let go. It is narrowed 5" and was under a '48 Anglia I own. PM me.
I never heard of the V-8 60 axle being cast rather than forged, but could explain why I remember hearing several times as a young wannabe hotrodder about those axles cracking and breaking. For that reason, I never wanted one.
I am so glad to finally hear about a V-8 60 axle cracking, not happy about some rodder's bad luck, but hearing after so many years that one cracked, a comment I heard many years ago from an old (at the time) rodder. I am also happy to hear a fellow rodder refer to the danger of using split bones/hairpins. And, if you intend to chrome that tube, you really should have it x-rayed for cracks. You are obviously familiar with hydrogen embrittlement.
Just posted a really nice Dropped 37 V8-60 axle in another Hamb post. There are more pics in the other post. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/37-ford-tube-front-axle-drop.861980/
I picked up a dropped V8-60 tube axle this weekend and found this post when searching for more info about them....
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