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Old 07-18-2010, 05:41 PM   #1
38FLATTIE
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Default HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

I'm looking for an as efficient rear end as I can find. I know Ford ' lose more HP than most, and that a GM 7.5" 10 bolt is better than a 12 bolt.

I would assume that a Halibrand V8 QC would be better than the Champ.

How about the Frankland- is it like the V8, or the Champ?

Overall, which rear end loses/robs less horsepower?

Last edited by 38FLATTIE; 07-18-2010 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 07-18-2010, 05:49 PM   #2
Andy
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

A ford banjo uses the least power. It is not an offset pinion rear. The offset makes for more rubbing and power loss. I would think the next would be the Ford 8". It has less offset than a 9" and a smaller ring and pinion. I don't know about the Q/C's. They are non hypoid but the change gears would use a lot of power.
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Old 07-18-2010, 06:05 PM   #3
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

In effect ... in the real world ... the less the parasitic drag ... the weaker the rear end.

Then you have gear ratio option problems in a LOT of the less common rear ends.

.
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Old 07-18-2010, 06:10 PM   #4
38FLATTIE
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Roadster View Post
In effect ... in the real world ... the less the parasitic drag ... the weaker the rear end.

Then you have gear ratio option problems in a LOT of the less common rear ends.

.
I'm more concerened with the HP loss from parasitic drag than I am the weak rear end. This won't be for 700hp launches, but for top end, with a flathead. I don't think in this application, that I'm very likely to tear up the diff, as long as it will handle the weight.

I'll have to deal with the gear ratio with the tranny, or tires.
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Old 07-18-2010, 06:26 PM   #5
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

Collin Casey (RIP) could kill 'em.LOL
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Old 07-18-2010, 06:59 PM   #6
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

A Ford 8.8 is the same design as a GM 10 bolts, but more recent. They have ratios, from 3 to 1 to 4-56 to 1, but changing the ratio is not a quicky deal. Design well, and run a close ratio five speed to compensate. If you cant make Speedweek, go to World of Speed in September. Talk to the guy driving the five speed Buick powered Jag sedan. He may be in your class.
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:01 PM   #7
jeff/21
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

Andy is right about the banjo rear Winters makes 2 non quick change rear banjo style with any style of bells even open tube as a for quick change rear a midget rear weighs half as much as a full size, the cheapest and lightest stock rear would be a 8.5" or 10" GM rear
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:04 PM   #8
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

Mopar 8 3/4 is plenty strong ,less drag than a 9 inch Ford and has the nice drop out section for quick gear swaps like the 8 and 9 inch Ford .Lots of gear choices for them as well .I can change out the center section my 8 3/4 in a few hours with hand tools by myself ...
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:08 PM   #9
38FLATTIE
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

Thanks guys! Where do the Frankland QC's fit in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole don View Post
A Ford 8.8 is the same design as a GM 10 bolts, but more recent. They have ratios, from 3 to 1 to 4-56 to 1, but changing the ratio is not a quicky deal. Design well, and run a close ratio five speed to compensate. If you cant make Speedweek, go to World of Speed in September. Talk to the guy driving the five speed Buick powered Jag sedan. He may be in your class.
Thanks, I will. I think his car is newer than mine- I'll be in XXO/BVGC

Shocker- I'll check those out too!
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:09 PM   #10
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

Quote:
Originally Posted by 38FLATTIE View Post
I'm more concerened with the HP loss from parasitic drag than I am the weak rear end. This won't be for 700hp launches, but for top end, with a flathead. I don't think in this application, that I'm very likely to tear up the diff, as long as it will handle the weight.

I'll have to deal with the gear ratio with the tranny, or tires.
How much torque, is that blown flathead Caddy going to make? Remember, they had enough torque to be used in tanks and tugboats. The amount of parasitic loss is not that much different, as to make it such a priority, as compared to parts availability and adaptability. Put in something proven, like a Ford 9", and never worry about it.
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:15 PM   #11
38FLATTIE
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

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Originally Posted by 29bowtie View Post
How much torque, is that blown flathead Caddy going to make? Remember, they had enough torque to be used in tanks and tugboats. The amount of parasitic loss is not that much different, as to make it such a priority, as compared to parts availability and adaptability. Put in something proven, like a Ford 9", and never worry about it.
I'll grant you the engines have a lot of torque(260fl/lbs stock), and this one will have more than most. That will get me rolling, and pull me through the gears, but top end speed is HP. I'm looking for LSR speed, and I'm pushing a brick, so I need to utilize all the HP I can.
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:17 PM   #12
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

This is some info i've found on certain rears. The quickies tend to be just a little less efficient because the r/p is not hypoid (more efficient than hypoid) BUT there is another spur gear set outback (added inefficiency).

That being said, i'm a huge fan of the frankland- nice people to work with, only $75 set up fee (plus parts/shipping). I love my 8 3/4 but I'm picking up a huge heavyduty one from the 60's so durability shouldn't be an issue.

i still dont think it'll take a transbrake launch on stickies, so i might save it for another project.

complete assembly w/0 brakes:
12 bolt 171lbs
S60 191lbs
9 inch 174lbs

WITH brakes (9 inch guys TAKE NOTE) this is using THE SAME brakes off the 12 bolt and putting them on the dana. The Ford Brakes weigh a TON, now you could put lightweight disks on the 9 but you could also do it to a 12 or Dana60.

12 bolt 210lbs
S60 230 lbs
9 inch 238 lbs

the greater the hypoid measurement, the more power it consumes in friction
the hypoid offsets are:

12 bolt 1.5 inches
ford 8.8 1.5 inches
ford 9 inch 2.25 inches
Dana 60 1.125


ring gear diameter.

12bolt 8.875"
ford 8.8 8.8"
ford 9 9"
Dana 60 9.75"

pinion shaft diameter (one of the weakest parts)

12bolt 1.625"
Dana 60 1.625"
ford 8.8 1.625"
ford 9 1.313

stock Dana 60's have 35 spline axles ( you have to spend bucks on a carrier and axles to upgrade to that with any other rear)

The ONLY downsides to a 60 are the cost (but it's not atrocious), and not being able to drop out the center at the track for another ratio- but how often do you guys do that.
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:22 PM   #13
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

I might consider weight also.
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:25 PM   #14
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

Never mind, I see Fury addressed that.
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:26 PM   #15
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

If power loss is a concern look into getting your rear axle super finished and coated. Winters offers an option for this but any gear set can be treated by after market suppliers. Google "super finishing" for many interesting articles on efficiency in axle gears.

Temperature rise is your best indicator of efficiency. Poor setting on the bevels will affect efficiency and noise. Noisy gears are wasting energy.

Just avoid the temptation to run a thin axle lube. Never trade viscosity for temperature. Before you know it the tooth surfaces are permanently damaged.

Almost 40 years in the gear business and people still fall for the snake oil salesmen. Gear companies make a bundle on spare parts!
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:31 PM   #16
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

Supposedly a chain drive uses less power than a 90 degree power change when using a shaft drive in a motorcycle.So turn the engine sideways and use chain drive Or,hate to think it,a front driver might have less loss??
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:43 PM   #17
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

A quick change flat out uses more HP and has a lot more drag than any of the other mentioned OEM rearends. You are turning an extra shaft and an extra set of gears. You can get it close by using the ceramic bearings and REM finishing on the gears, shafts and races but you can also do all those on a std type rearend and pick up even more.

I would suggest using a 9" Ford rearend with a GM 12 bolt hybrid carrier made by Williams. This allows you to use the strength of the Ford with the better drop of the 12 bolt. It also gives you the full range of 12 bolt gears to choose from.

To pick it up even more, get the gears, bearings and almost anything else REM finished to pick up the maximum amount of HP and minimum drag. Makes a big difference.

Check out these guys for more information.

http://www.pemracing.com/Gears.html

They manufacture the parts, do the finishing and have a great motorsports background. Talk to Randy and tell him Steve (SPark) sent you!

Good lcuk,
SPark
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Old 07-18-2010, 07:59 PM   #18
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

Depends how much money you want to spend, and how much damage it needs to hold up to. If you want as light as you can, but still keep strength you can always go with some gun drilled axles..but they aren't cheap.

Something like wheels/tires combo will make a bigger difference then axles in most cases. Same with transmission ect.. When it comes to rear end...sacrificing a little hp to not blowing up your diff and wrecking your car is the choice I'd always make.
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Old 07-18-2010, 08:23 PM   #19
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

The thing with a Quickchange is the ratio of the original ring and pinion will vary the mount of power used to drive it.

Overdriving the pinion uses more power.

Using a rare 3.25 ring and pinion will use less power than a 3.78 ring and pinion when its geared to say 2.8:1 final ratio.

Its like an overdrive transmission - you loose power when you drop it into overdrive as the engine has to "climb" the overdrive.

Hope I'm explaining myself adequately.
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Old 07-18-2010, 08:33 PM   #20
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Default Re: HP Loss- Which Rear End Is Best

lm14 x2..........
look at markwilliams site for this setup
they can make it lite weight too
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