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Old 07-10-2009, 11:17 PM   #21
64 DODGE 440
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sloppyjoe View Post
So.... I could run a early slant six...since they came out in 60, but if the date code on the block is 68 nobody is going to bitch? Sorry for being a re-nob....but I'm stoked about this, and want to get it right the first time.
From my point it wouldn't be any more of a problem than running a Mopar flathead 6 with a '68 date code, and yes they did build the the 230 inch flathead at least that late for use in the military Dodge M37B1 series of trucks and even though the 218 inch engine began in '34, it will swap many parts with the '68.

As long as the basic design began before '62 as long as the fundamentals of the design match I don't see a problem and doubt anyone else will. If an engine began with a four main bearing crank and the later version has a seven main crank that would be a problem and similarly if the later version had major improvements in the head porting that would be a problem too. Just my feelings on the debate and I'm sure others will chime in.

Build within the concept and have fun.
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Old 07-12-2009, 07:24 PM   #22
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

My rail job looks alot like the bug but it has a 2.3 overhead cam ford motor,banjo rear model A front with 1/4 eliptics and it has a hand fabbed zoomie that looks correct as well. The motor makes about 125 hp and sounds great! I know chev made the iron duke 4 cyl, but its a push rod motor. will this qualify thanks Jim
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Old 07-12-2009, 08:41 PM   #23
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

Howdy,

Sounds like a great car, how 'bout some pictures?

As to the engine, I'm not that up on Fords so .... did they have a cammer in the early fifties and if so, is this engine conceptually related to it?
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Old 07-14-2009, 12:33 PM   #24
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

soon as I figure out how to get the film out of my digital camera I will upload or download a pic Thanks Jim
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Old 07-16-2009, 07:13 AM   #25
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

go to a harley dealer, get a hand operated hydro clutch master cyl. then go to speedway motors get a hydrolic throw-out bearing stop by a hose shop have a line made to mate this combo modify your shifter to mount the hand clutch and Bam go race and have fun !!! You're welcome Pants
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Old 07-21-2009, 01:34 PM   #26
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

Having recently purchased a 1950 flatty digger I was wondering where all the information was and found this site. The dragster I have represents the 50's and is all original as built back then. It seems A lot of modifications will have to be made to fit rules that are 2009 style. As I remember it they ran in the 13-14 second area I believe so why the hard core NHRA rules? Some are fine while others restrict or prevent the real older cars from running unless you want to rebuild to current standards. Just my thoughts.
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:46 PM   #27
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

Lawyers mostly.

The safety issues are real of course and our society no longer feels you should have the right to take any chances with your own body, because it makes them squeamish.
Lawyers and con men (politicians) use that squeamishness to further their careers by pandering to the complete ignorance of freedom that the "masses" indulge.

NHRA's a business, period.
Pandering to their bottom line via the main stream public's ignorance is what they do. Their product is what that public believes drag racing should be, not one iota of what it actually was or is.
Even their "nostalgia" racing venues have nothing to do with actual historic racing. It's nothing more than a TV show of tire smoke and noise from their point of usage.

Oops, vented.

Your car sounds like a great find. How 'bout some pictures?
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Old 07-22-2009, 12:03 PM   #28
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

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Originally Posted by Old6rodder View Post
Lawyers mostly.

The safety issues are real of course and our society no longer feels you should have the right to take any chances with your own body, because it makes them squeamish.
Lawyers and con men (politicians) use that squeamishness to further their careers by pandering to the complete ignorance of freedom that the "masses" indulge.

NHRA's a business, period.
Pandering to their bottom line via the main stream public's ignorance is what they do. Their product is what that public believes drag racing should be, not one iota of what it actually was or is.
Even their "nostalgia" racing venues have nothing to do with actual historic racing. It's nothing more than a TV show of tire smoke and noise from their point of usage.

Oops, vented.

Your car sounds like a great find. How 'bout some pictures?
I have posted some of these on the regular site but not here. As stated earlier I got this from Garlits Museum and am in the process of having a new flatty built and making sure all correct pieces are time correct and this is a true 1950 vintage. I had to shorten the steering for me to fit good but that's about all I want to do other than a total disassemble and inspect every thing and then put it all together again. I also will have to do the battery and starter for rule and ease of operation but we had them like that in the 50's.
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Old 07-22-2009, 03:15 PM   #29
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

Please keep posting here RAY With. That 1950 dragster is what HA/GR is about. We are trying to re-live the early days of drag racing, and your little rail could motivate some of our re-creations to be built or finished.
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Old 07-22-2009, 05:12 PM   #30
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

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Please keep posting here RAY With. That 1950 dragster is what HA/GR is about. We are trying to re-live the early days of drag racing, and your little rail could motivate some of our re-creations to be built or finished.

I will and I just never knew this forum existed. I was in hopes of running the HAMB event but motor wont be finished in time and I want it right. I started racing in 52 and this digger was built 2 years before that so it is actual representative of those times. Steering was frozen up so I had to rebuild it with all new bearings then shorten it for me to drive it but it is the same appearing. I ran Nostalgia in the 90's in gas/sedan class so I know what to expect however the flatty is a new experience since its been so long since I ran one on the track. I also plan on making the Temple/Academy event when finished
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:00 AM   #31
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

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i've had the pleasure of inspecting the bug, up close and personal. I understand the escence of the "run what you brung" hamb rules, but.........

I started racing at famoso dragstrip when a smokers flagman started 4 cars off at a time (i have photos somewhere). The only car i couldn't beat in m stock was an olds with a hydro. I partially paralized myself in a sreet car accident, non 29. 1963. Sticks were to difficult to drive street/strip so i put a beefed hydro in my '32 3 window in 1964. The hydro made it posible to race again. I still have my original hydo from 45 years ago, and it doesn't meet the rules? Also, in 1964, i crewed on an early 92" wb junior fueler with a cast iron powerglide. This was, definately, a hamb car in spirit. We never won anything, but that's not what it was built for. It barely passed tech, but we ran. It was just for fun, and we had a fun time. And a cast iron powerglide doesn't meet your rules? According to the rules, you can run any stick trany you want, no year limitations, just as long as its a standard. Where's the bug spirit in that? There is a rule about pre 62 6's, which is understandible. But you can't use an automatic that was used on the 6, but you can use any late model standard trany you want? There are exceptions to the "no exotic overhead heads" rule, but there are none for the "no automatics" rule. In 1954, a year before the bug was built, hot rod magazine did a large, indepth, story on the hydro and how to beef it. Racers were using the hydro before the bug was built, but an automatic doesn't meet the bugs spirit? I could understand any trany, 62 and earlier, nothing later. Now that's the spirit! But, i really have no problem with any year standard trany. I will stick with only 62 and earlier automatics, because that is, truely, the spirit. As i'm typing this post, but a few feet away is a 52 lincoln with a hydro, and a 47 cad with a hydro, ready to put into something. Hamb is my first choice, nhra brackets is a second. But, then again, if the no automatics rule is to keep the disabled out of hamb, i apologize for this post. My intention is not to barge in where i am not wanted, but to allow hamb to be available to everyone. Again, if the bug has the desired spirit (whatever that is) that the rules are based on, and those rules are written in stone, i apologize for being so presumptious as to post this thread. I could see the incongruities in the rules, and hamb cars i have inspected, so i thought i might suggest a possible change. If that is out of the question, i didn't realize it, and i apologize.

Dirts32


Quote:
Originally Posted by old6rodder View Post
i get to enjoy the bug repro regularly, kind of cool.



Slushpumps are encouraged, and well represented, in ha/gr style cars in the sdra.



There are oft stated reasons for ha/gr's stick preferrence, they're not related to period of production. One simply put; can you miss a shift with a slush? We can with our sticks.



You don't want to hear my response to your attempted guilt trip.




i don't think it was an attempted guilt trip .

More someone that wants to race ,and has raced before, simply asking a qusetion about the rules.

This atitude is what ruin's the chance for everyone to be a part of drag racing! Rules and $$$ thats what it equals out to.

Sound like someones been watching way too much nascar.

I rather see a hydro than a t5 any day.but thats just me .i like to see period correct racecars not someone's interpertation of one with a 1968 slant six one barrel and t56 ,radial tires ,gay ass red rims ,and a racoon tail . Oh, and you can miss a shift with a manualy shifted hydromatic . You don't wan't dirt racing any way he might build a car thats faster than yours and that would make you look bad.i will never build a "hampster" for the simple reason of that i can build a real race car ,not just a stock motor'd go cart for big kids .and the rules that govern them.

Last edited by PORTERVILLE; 07-24-2009 at 12:05 AM. Reason: SPELING
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:48 PM   #32
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

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Originally Posted by PORTERVILLE View Post
i don't think it was an attempted guilt trip .

More someone that wants to race ,and has raced before, simply asking a qusetion about the rules.

This atitude is what ruin's the chance for everyone to be a part of drag racing! Rules and $$$ thats what it equals out to.

Sound like someones been watching way too much nascar.

I rather see a hydro than a t5 any day.but thats just me .i like to see period correct racecars not someone's interpertation of one with a 1968 slant six one barrel and t56 ,radial tires ,gay ass red rims ,and a racoon tail . Oh, and you can miss a shift with a manualy shifted hydromatic . You don't wan't dirt racing any way he might build a car thats faster than yours and that would make you look bad.i will never build a "hampster" for the simple reason of that i can build a real race car ,not just a stock motor'd go cart for big kids .and the rules that govern them.
If you have done any research on the HA/GR class rules and assorted build posts and reports on this forum you would understand the reasoning behind the "manual transmissions only" rule.

With that in mind you would also understand that this class isn't about "Stock motor'd go carts" anymore than "Vintage Top Fuel" is about what true front engined dragsters are about.

That said, If you need it explained to you, you'll never understand it anyway.

Build what you want and go race it, but don't rag on others for doing it their way and not how you think.

It seems like every few months we get some new folks who discover the HA/GR board and develop an interest in possibly building one of these cars.

Often they express their desires and start out by asking questions about the class, what engines they can use, what basic construction methods and on some occasions "where can they get blueprints for the cars". Generally after the initial questions it seems that there is a tendency for many to ask why they can't run some combination of parts that are "outside the box" such as an automatic transmission or a Holley four barrel carb or some other pieces that don't quite fit the spirit of the class.

First off, without wanting to sound like the grouchy old man that I am, if they would just look at the top of the forum, they would see the post "Sticky: HA/GR Rules..." that does a pretty good job of saying what is and what is not allowed in the class. There are no blueprints and the general design of these cars is left to the builder, as it was in the past.

Second, if those rules don't appeal to them, I have no problem with that, build what you want, but don't expect those of us building to the rules and spirit of the class to change the rules to fit your feelings on what you want to build.

Third, realize that this class is all about, "Run What Ya Brung, Heads Up, No Handicap Racing", in home built rails in the spirit of how it was done "back then" in the '40s, '50s and early '60s. That doesn't mean there aren't concessions to safety in construction methods and design, but the whole idea goes back to the concept of non-mass produced cars, and the design is left up to the builder, not laid down in the rules. Interpretation is left to the builder within the simple parameters that the driver sit in front of the rear axle, the axles not be narrowed, and suspension is whatever you do or do not desire.

If you wish to "Bracket Race", fine.......many people enjoy the concept. If you wish to run a class where if you "run too fast" you can break out, fine, but please accept the fact that there are some of us who wish to build our own cars, our own way, without blueprints other than sketches on notebook paper and coffee shop napkins.

As it was in the past, there will always be those who feel that the biggest and baddest engine is the only way to win and there will be those who feel that David can still slay the giant. That is the reality that this class is based on.

If you wish to play the game, welcome aboard. There is always room for more to run and we are glad to have you, just realize that the rules are there and they aren't really that complex. Times have changed, they coat the track with contact cement now and a six inch tire sticks a lot better than it did in the days of bare asphalt or concrete, but the racing is still about who gets there first

Hope to see you in the staging lanes.......and may the quickest one win.
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Old 07-24-2009, 05:22 PM   #33
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

RAY With,

That thing is beautiful. Thanks for the pictures, I've tucked'em in their own folder in my collection.
Definitely keepers.
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:07 PM   #34
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

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RAY With,

That thing is beautiful. Thanks for the pictures, I've tucked'em in their own folder in my collection.
Definitely keepers.
Thanks Old6 and there is still a lot to do. I have to build a firewall and have it all laid out in cardboard and need material now. Installing friction shocks like it use to have and a little welding and it will be ready for motor and electrical . I am doing a few pictures as I go and will post as I get a little time.
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Old 07-25-2009, 01:22 AM   #35
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

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Originally Posted by 64 DODGE 440 View Post
If you have done any research on the HA/GR class rules and assorted build posts and reports on this forum you would understand the reasoning behind the "manual transmissions only" rule.

With that in mind you would also understand that this class isn't about "Stock motor'd go carts" anymore than "Vintage Top Fuel" is about what true front engined dragsters are about.

That said, If you need it explained to you, you'll never understand it anyway.

Build what you want and go race it, but don't rag on others for doing it their way and not how you think.

It seems like every few months we get some new folks who discover the HA/GR board and develop an interest in possibly building one of these cars.

Often they express their desires and start out by asking questions about the class, what engines they can use, what basic construction methods and on some occasions "where can they get blueprints for the cars". Generally after the initial questions it seems that there is a tendency for many to ask why they can't run some combination of parts that are "outside the box" such as an automatic transmission or a Holley four barrel carb or some other pieces that don't quite fit the spirit of the class.

First off, without wanting to sound like the grouchy old man that I am, if they would just look at the top of the forum, they would see the post "Sticky: HA/GR Rules..." that does a pretty good job of saying what is and what is not allowed in the class. There are no blueprints and the general design of these cars is left to the builder, as it was in the past.

Second, if those rules don't appeal to them, I have no problem with that, build what you want, but don't expect those of us building to the rules and spirit of the class to change the rules to fit your feelings on what you want to build.

Third, realize that this class is all about, "Run What Ya Brung, Heads Up, No Handicap Racing", in home built rails in the spirit of how it was done "back then" in the '40s, '50s and early '60s. That doesn't mean there aren't concessions to safety in construction methods and design, but the whole idea goes back to the concept of non-mass produced cars, and the design is left up to the builder, not laid down in the rules. Interpretation is left to the builder within the simple parameters that the driver sit in front of the rear axle, the axles not be narrowed, and suspension is whatever you do or do not desire.

If you wish to "Bracket Race", fine.......many people enjoy the concept. If you wish to run a class where if you "run too fast" you can break out, fine, but please accept the fact that there are some of us who wish to build our own cars, our own way, without blueprints other than sketches on notebook paper and coffee shop napkins.

As it was in the past, there will always be those who feel that the biggest and baddest engine is the only way to win and there will be those who feel that David can still slay the giant. That is the reality that this class is based on.

If you wish to play the game, welcome aboard. There is always room for more to run and we are glad to have you, just realize that the rules are there and they aren't really that complex. Times have changed, they coat the track with contact cement now and a six inch tire sticks a lot better than it did in the days of bare asphalt or concrete, but the racing is still about who gets there first

Hope to see you in the staging lanes.......and may the quickest one win.

very well put . and point taken. it was not my intent to offend anyone .
i do understand the concept of a class
and anyone who has ever been injured understands the need for safety
my beef is simply not letting hydros or early auto's run in that class
you can do alot with a hydro but is it cheaper to run the stock hydro with your flathead lincoln ? or buy a expensive adapter kit and manual gear box? im sure the rules are there for a reason ,and its problably been debated before. i just belive your selling your selves short by not allowing
autos . It would help your class to grow you already have one guy who wants in . ps all of my personal cars at this time are standard. i perfer them. may be you could start a new class AHA/GR A for auto .ps
what about a chrysler fluid drive it is a standard 3spd only the flywheel has a fluid coupler infront of it ? what about a manual shift clutched hydro?

just stickin up for dirt
you know he missed a shift with his hydro at fomosa in his 32 then got back in it only to have the front universal goint to let go at the lights causing the car to poll vault end over end he was thrown out of the original open top by centrifugal force being scalped in the process and remained consiousnes throughout the ordeal. i asked him where was the drive shaft loop he said didnt have one ,no loop ,no helmet ,no seat belt,
just a t-shirt that said "powerd by junk". he said the worst part was they left the windows down in the ambulance and the wind was blowing on his bare skull ,all he asked was how's my car? so you could say he is aware of safety. you never know who your talking to thats why you should treat every one with respect .

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Old 07-25-2009, 02:02 AM   #36
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

PORTERVILLE, I understand respect and I'm not trying to offend anyone, but the manual/automatic thing has been beaten to death many times over.

For those who wish to run an automatic, the SDRA guys have no problems with the concept as well as other options that don't fit into the spirit of the HA/GR rules.

It just seems that many folks come on here with the attitude that they would like to build an HA/GR, but "why can't I use an Automatic", or "can't we use radial tires", or "why can't we run an Olds overhead V8, they were built before '62", or whatever else comes to mind.

The rules are really pretty simple and don't need to be changed. As you yourself said, you don't have to build one, you "can build a real race car". Why does everybody feel the need to change the class to fit their own ideas? Build what ya want, just don't expect it to be accepted as an HA/GR if it doesn't fit the rules.
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Old 07-25-2009, 04:29 AM   #37
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

I'll add that the SDRA cars and the HA/GR cars race side by side in Tulsa (where they started) and the slushpumpers are presently faster.

Hell, do what we did. Build the first one on the west coast, bring it out and race it. Get the SDRA rolling out here. I guarantee there'll be followers if you do. And at least you'll get to race the first year instead of having to settle for "show & tells" 'til the second like we did. Why should the Tulsa boys be the only ones to enjoy a good rivalry?

It may well be that I've talked to Dirts32 at the strip. I recall someone mentioning a problem with shifting and I believe I responded regarding the SDRA then. Perhaps it was another person with the same concerns, I'm sure there're others.

As to respect, calling someone on a silly statement (we all make'em from time to time if we're human) isn't disrespectful in my book if it isn't done antagonistically. I've been called on things, as we all have. I take it as it's intended, "Gimme a break Dick, that's a bit much." Embarrassing yes, offensive no.
What's hard to convey in print is the tone of it. There's no icon handy to show the wry head shake a friend gives you in calling you on something silly.

"But, then again, if the no automatics rule is to keep the disabled out of hamb, i apologize for this post."
Man up, that was a silly statement and an attempted guilt trip.

"You don't want to hear my response to your attempted guilt trip."
I'll freely admit that my comment can be read harsher than I intended it.
Perhaps a would've been a helpful addition.

Lastly, "you never know who your talking to thats why you should treat every one with respect ."
I'm a charter member of the "Lifetime paying for my own stupid mistakes" club. Earliest one was climbing a tree in the rain at a friend's birthday party at the age of nine and grabbing a 24K power line 2 1/2 stories up to see what electricity felt like. What's left of my nervous system is more problems than some folks would care to live with. Some of'em are deadly if not managed, and not one of'em do I expect variance for. There are more as well but they're all my problems, I'll tend to'em.

This world doesn't give a rusty fuck where I've been or what hells've tempered me into what I am, nor should it. They only notice what I am today, if they notice at all. Smiling seems to help some (except with lawyers), so ...
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Old 12-20-2009, 10:47 PM   #38
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

not sure if this is in the right place but here goes.
first, i understand what ya'll are trying to do with this class. very cool.

second, you,re very vague about the engines that are legal for this class. just to try and understand let me offer this.
i assume a 53-57chevy 235 L6 would be legal while a late model toyota L6 that shares a common head, albeit modernized, and a much stouter bottom end would not even though gm designed it and sold it to toyota who updated it with great success.

the other thing that bothered me while reading about this class is that it has been touted by some as a "run what u brung class" or something similar to that.
once again i think these cars are awsome, but that just aint so.
anybody thats ever been around racing knows that it stops being run what u brung the moment you write the first rule.
just my two cents worth.
love these cars, but please don't call it something it's not.

looking forward to a clarification about the engines to see if i understood correctly.
thanks
duke182
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Old 12-21-2009, 12:02 AM   #39
Old6rodder
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

Nice try, down right smooth.

"Modernized" & "updated with great success" pretty much explains the point if you understand what we're doing here.

Run what you brung refers to the widely varied styles of build for 1950 era "rail jobs". Again pretty clear if you understand what we're doing here.

Perhaps if you define your understanding of the class we can be of more help.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:06 AM   #40
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Default Re: HA/GR Rules...

Quote:
Originally Posted by duke182 View Post
not sure if this is in the right place but here goes.
first, i understand what ya'll are trying to do with this class. very cool.

second, you,re very vague about the engines that are legal for this class. just to try and understand let me offer this.
i assume a 53-57chevy 235 L6 would be legal while a late model toyota L6 that shares a common head, albeit modernized, and a much stouter bottom end would not even though gm designed it and sold it to toyota who updated it with great success.

the other thing that bothered me while reading about this class is that it has been touted by some as a "run what u brung class" or something similar to that.
once again i think these cars are awsome, but that just aint so.
anybody thats ever been around racing knows that it stops being run what u brung the moment you write the first rule.
just my two cents worth.
love these cars, but please don't call it something it's not.

looking forward to a clarification about the engines to see if i understood correctly.
thanks
duke182
Sorry, but you seem to be missing the point...yes there are "rules", but if you read the rules, specifically rules #12 through #16 the game is explained pretty well and in that concept the class is very much "run what ya brung" and it isn't really "very vague about the engines that are legal for this class". If you read through the build posts here you will see everything from box stock engines to the full race builds like Ron Golden's GMC and moparsled's flathead six that pretty well cover the range. This class is about reliving the early days of drag racing and you have the choice of what and how to build your vision of that era, be it a lightweight V8-60 powered rail, a monster Cadillac flathead V8, a Crosley inline 4 or a straight 8 Buick. Single one barrel carb up to however many two barrels you can stack on it. Hell I doubt there are any here that would object to a full race Lincoln V12 if someone wanted to go there. If that don't seem like "run what ya brung" what does? The rules are pretty wide open on chassis design, engine location and everything else, our main restrictions come not from the class, but the modern safety requirements of the tracks and as long as they are met it's wide open to your imagination.

Take some time, research the builds and join in. Once you make a pass in one of these cars it's really hard to live in the modern world.
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