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Hot Rods Model A body on ‘32 chassis WITH FENDERS- Help!

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by RiffRaffRoadster, Dec 24, 2018.

  1. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Here are some pics from a restoration underway on a very renowned Hotrod...

    They are preserving the garage built details in they're entirety only repairing as needed...much of this was covered by body and metal or glass panels much like yours will. I don't believe they are hiding it with filler either...heres some pics including the Hotrod with Norm in its heyday and by the way he drove this thing hard.

    So why this...
    to understand restraint. It doesn't and many times wasn't pretty in those darker areas hidden by the body and covers But it was functional and safe.

    And that crossmember is what I'm talking about...

    0_Quick-History-grabowski-t-bucket.jpg

    Kookie Kar @ Roy Brizio Street Rods (51).jpg

    Kookie Kar @ Roy Brizio Street Rods (56).jpg

    Kookie Kar @ Roy Brizio Street Rods (58).jpg

    Kookie Kar @ Roy Brizio Street Rods (55).jpg

    Kookie Kar @ Roy Brizio Street Rods (53).jpg

    Kookie Kar @ Roy Brizio Street Rods (64).jpg

    https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum...kar-back-to-1958.1110832/page-6#post-12956271

     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  2. Nailhead Terry is correct in his description of a 32 rear crossmember. Big Duece points out a few things that have there own issues for your project. If your going back the way it was you are dead on correct in staying with what is there. There is nothing structuraly wrong with what you have. Today we might do something prettier to look at but it still would be doing the same job. Stay the course and keep going forward.
     
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  3. Stogy: I had forgotten what it was like to Stick Weld out of position. You are dead on right, few were very pretty in the unseen places and near none of us wasted time grinding and sanding what you couldn't see.
     
  4. big duece
    Joined: Jul 28, 2008
    Posts: 6,830

    big duece
    Member
    from kansas

    I wasn't sure if you were starting from scratch back there or not. If your going to reuse the chevy rear and rear wishbone type arms, then leave the crossmember in there. To maintain the axle centerline/wheelbase, you would need to use same style trailing arm or ones with the same spring to axle centerline setup.
     
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  5. big duece
    Joined: Jul 28, 2008
    Posts: 6,830

    big duece
    Member
    from kansas

    In this pic, either the rear bones are too close together on the housing, or the spring used is too wide eye to eye. The spring hangers if just on a empty chassis should almost be close to 45 degree angle like the ones in this pic IMG_2643.JPG 9u6ovn.jpg
     
  6. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    o_O...Your point being? I believe this member to be in good standing with no bad press so other than being an older ad it fits the donor description for the discussion...no harm in PM'ing the member. There is some distance dividing but if it was determined to be a go things could be trimmed accordingly to downsize the package and the Hamb has a way of making things happen when the needs arise to deliver...
     
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  7. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    @RiffRaffRoadster you'll have to sort out all the info coming your way. Guys are just trying to give you ideas, you'll have to pick through them and figure out how you want to go with it.

    A center X member would be structurally the best, but the rod has been around this long without one, it can go back together without one. You could use as 32 K member for a little more structural integrity, not as good as an X, but some added strength above just a straight crossmember. Or your guy could reinforce what's there with some strategically placed tubing to provide additional support. As I posted above, there's more than 1 way to skin a cat (apologies to cat lovers, it's just a saying...).

    While the above is about fortifying the chassis, I'm still concerned about the rear radius rod mounts. Looking at your chassis pics some more, it looks like the crossmember they mount to, which also is the rear trans mount, is just bolted on, maybe it's just the pic, but it doesn't look real substantial. So those forces I mentioned before that are working on those rods, they are being transferred right to that crossmember, and then to the bolts holding it to the rails. My eyes aren't so good, so maybe I'm not seeing it right, but it looks like just 1 bolt per side, I hope that's a good size bolt! And grade 8. I'd really be looking to improve that whole arrangement. Think about what happens if one of those bolts fail? Not just the rear suspension mount, but the transmission too. There's a lot riding on that crossmember. It's survived so far, and that's good. Are you going to keep your fingers crossed that it keeps on going, or do something now to make it a little more structurally sound?

    It looks like you could angle those radius rods in some, if you did that, that would spread the rear spring mount points out a little too, addressing the concern that big deuce pointed out above. Seems like a win-win situation to me.
     
  8. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 7,589

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Check out the Pete & Jakes catalog, it's got some real good chassis information in it that's just good info to know. And scroll thru the pages, they have several tubular K & X members you could purchase, or use as inspiration. https://www.superformance.com.au/assets/files/Brands/Pete and Jakes Catalogue.pdf

    And I'll probably have some curse words hurled my way for this, but take a look at this assembly available from Speedway: https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Spee...oZ1mRL5g52p4BdnJs2LKFicPwtywcDWQaAjeCEALw_wcB

    I think what you need to do is decide how deep you want to get into this at this point, and then go forward with that. Just beef up what you have, make it safe; or install a full X-member, or something in between. It's up to you to decide.
     
  9. One thing for sure is there's no shortage of info leading to choices. Making sound ones for yourself can be a challenge. A good point made by big duece is the rear shackle angle. That's not something to over look. Then Blues4U mentions just changing the radius rod angle to correct or help correct that angle. I look at the spring issue as separate from trailing arms. To change both angles as mentioned means cutting the mount bracket off the rear axle and re welding. I wouldn't do all that. I'd leave the Axle housing alone. I'd get measurements for stock Ford spring hanger width the have the Spring main leaf shortened to work with mounts as is. Fix the shackle angle and get the ride back. Right now there is no movement in the rear spring. A little heat will change the angle of trailing arms just fine and move on. As said above, different ways to Skin the Cat.
     
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  10. It's really to bad you didn't get a chance to drive the Roadster before it ended up in a Box. Assessing how things did or didn't work would have been priceless in helping with good decisions at this stage.
     
  11. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This is a journey...one could consider this a first generation redo and resurrection...so whatever route forward is taken...say installing that preboxed tubed situation it could be changed down the road should one desire...in that cabin the experience will be no different whether a custom fabbed, aftermarket or reworked original is used. This is adding some beef and safer stability to mount critical components such as the noted Bones that need either modding or ladders in lieu of. I noted Brizio's welding in that rear kickup on the Kookie T perhaps adding more bead or repairing a noted crack so those with structural minds must decide...

    I am no different in suggesting replacing the front axle with one that doesn't have a mount for the spring welded on top...I just draw the line at certain things...If I have to replace the spring because of it I do it...I like to have confidence at 70mph on the Highway pounding those potholes all over the nation that things are going to stay together...

    I remember back in the this thread someone saying those welded spring perchs were done all the time back in the day...I'm sure it was...but you'd have a tough time convincing me to let it go...I wonder how many Jalopy Racer crashes were due to a fatigued weld here or there.

    @lurker mick was skeptical of the U-bolts on the rear crossmember...I see they actually aren't U because they weren't available probably that long...so have the builder have a critical look at these details making sure they are still in good working order (and they may well be fine)...Again I'm no Chassis Guy so I just see things and ask questions and hope to get honest answers...
     
  12. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER





    RiffWWcomp.jpg

    RiffWWmod.jpg

    Since we're on chassis detail...I asked a ways back and someone else may have mentioned this wheel position as well but there was no discussion further. I have been looking at these two pics and it seems as if they are very similar so all is Good? In the thumbnail I re-positioned the wheel centralized in the opening...Obviously if one is going to rectify this now is the time to consider it...How is this done?...I'm suspecting the spring perch position on the rear end determines rear end location along with radius or bone position adjustment...

     
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  13. Right Stogy; That begs the next Question. Was it the same on both sides?The way things are mounted to the Frame one side can be corrected by adding length to the Heim joint on that side. What's that going to transfer into?
     
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  14. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER


    RiffRBmod.jpg

    Another question or observation the bone flanges on this rear end seem angled far more inboard than the bones actually were...I'd like to see the rear bones how they are angled in this flange area or were they washer shimmed...just curious this could all be optical illusion...I mean if the angle is of the flange on the rear end is angled far enough inboard why change it.​
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  15. In today's Hot Rod world near everyone doing it has a Frame table. Back when this Roadster was built if you were one of the Lucky ones that had a cement floor to work on that meant you had a fair chance that the wood sawhorses you were working on had a fair chance of being close to level to each other. Today we work on a center line and on this Chassis would be the front and rear spring center pin bolt hole. To pinch the 32 frame to work on the A body would mean removing some of the width of the 32 K member. So maybe it's camera angle but looking close at the bare frame pre blasting if you sight from the 2 trans bolt holes through what's left of the 32 part forward to the front spring center bolt hole, things don't look real good. Could be why the rear tire was close to the fender on the leading edge, maybe not but I'd get out a string and a tape measure before I just started cleaning up things and getting ready to do anything else.
     
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  16. Being sure it's square is the proper place to start, as suggested by piston broke.

    Phil
     
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  17. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
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  18. big duece
    Joined: Jul 28, 2008
    Posts: 6,830

    big duece
    Member
    from kansas

    Which ever rear 36ish style bones used, needs to be majorly beefed up, for v8 use. The original '36 bones had a closed drive line that added lots of strength.
     
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  19. nailhead terry
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,458

    nailhead terry
    Member

    I guess plow bolts and stick welds are ok but I am a heliarc grade 8 guy and the reason I mentioned my drive line is I like to drag race my car some and my frame was from a old hot rod that had been stick gas welded and probably JB welded so just to be on the safe side I went to the over kill side of the coin I am glad you blasted the frame inspect it well the radius rods spread out like they are will not allow the rear to flex causing twist in the chassis or the housing look at the original buggy spring geometry and in the front its allowable to spread the bones out on a I beam axle /because the axle will flex you are not supposed to use split bones on a tube front axle If your Main rails look good I agree with Stogy but triangulation somewhere in your chassis will stop it from racking or moving diagonal I would preserve as much as possible I have been involved in hot rods for over 45 years and my older brother and my dad where Also my family in California were also doing it for a little while I think our Montgomery family has done it since my dad went to the dry lakes
     
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  20. I was thinking about my statement saying "leave the rear Axle housing alone". Doing that may just go out the window when and where you rehang the trailing arms. You have Pinion angle to take into consideration. What's there now and what you may need doing that job may make redoing the Axle housing mounts a better way to go. Who knows if pinion angle is correct as it is now?
     
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  21. RiffRaffRoadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2018
    Posts: 450

    RiffRaffRoadster
    Member

    I’ve already discussed with the builder that we may be looking at adding a tube or beam center x member and moving the ends of the rear split wishbones towards centerline and he agrees. I’ll show him the diagrams here.
    As for the rear wheel position, that may be misleading. Again, when my buddy and I took the car out and got it running 12 years ago, we replaced the intake and carb, transmission, and I forgot to say we replaced the rear tires. I think they were dramatically oversized, almost like truck tires because that’s all we had available at the time. This may be why they are not centered in the wheel well under the fender.


    Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  22. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Tire size doesn't change hub position in fender opening...it may make it harder to see or easier (note in the thumbnail under the two comparisons I PS centered the tire in the well or to the fender )...What is interesting is yours and the BC Roadster which are both A's with 32 frames and fenders look to have a wheel fwd. visually...Really its a personal thing as it is adjustable as everything that was swapped in over the years can alter the look per say.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  23. RiffRaffRoadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2018
    Posts: 450

    RiffRaffRoadster
    Member

    Did the BC roadster get that stance only by using a dropped front axle?


    Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  24. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Very probable...since it's in a magazine it may be mentioned including how much in the descriptive story.
     
  25. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  26. Dagels Street Rods has a prefab X-Member as well: http://www.dagelsstreetrods.com/
    Still, I think this car is calling out for one from an original frame. Keep having fun with it no matter what though.
     
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  27. flatford39
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 2,799

    flatford39
    Member

    This is the understatement of this whole thread.
     
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  28. RiffRaffRoadster
    Joined: Dec 24, 2018
    Posts: 450

    RiffRaffRoadster
    Member

    Alright-don’t rub it in...


    Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  29. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 26,345

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I for one am pretty darn happy you chimed into this place when you did...looking forward to your updates as they evolve...its one heck of a poker game...;)...and life size puzzle...you will be all smiles when the cards are laid down...;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
  30. Dick Stevens
    Joined: Aug 7, 2012
    Posts: 3,710

    Dick Stevens
    Member

    And not only that he chimed in when he did, but was ready to learn from all of the opinions expressed by so many HAMBers that offered advice!
     

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