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HEMI Tech: Oil systems- filters, pumps, pans

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by scootermcrad, Jun 28, 2006.

  1. scootermcrad
    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
    Posts: 13,070

    scootermcrad
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    Next Hemi subject.

    Seems like there are a lot of new advancements in Hemi lubrication systems. Let's talk about pros and cons of some of the new components available as well as take a look at the original systems used.

    1) Oil pumps...
    - how much flow is really needed for certain applications?
    - other Mopar pumps that will give the correct oiling characteristics needed and will adapt to the Hemi?
    - Aftermarket pumps and who makes them?
    - where were the pumps located on which motors (rear, middle, etc.)?

    2) Pans and windage trays...
    - What pans fit what motors and which have baffles (if any)?
    - What size pan is good for what applications?
    - When is a windage tray a good idea and how can it help performance?
    - What's the best windage tray set-up (studed mains, etc.)?
    - Who provides a quality pan and windage tray?

    3) Oil filter adapters and block off components...
    - What adapters are best for what application? Remote, angled, stock, etc.
    - Who makes adapters and which one's work the best?
    - When should a by-pass block off component be used and why?

    Let's open the discussion. Let's here what you've used, what you like and what works for what.

    One more subject for the Hemi "archives".
     
  2. 4tford
    Joined: Aug 27, 2005
    Posts: 1,486

    4tford
    Member

    I used the 340 hi vol oil pump modified to fit the 392 it uses the std intermediate drive and gear. I used the hotheads spin on verticle oil filter adapter but there was a clearence problem with the trans adapter so I had to use a smaller oil filter to gain clearence. As for the oil pan I used a 7 quart rear sump Milodon pan. Also the oil by pass plug that HH sells to divert all oil through the filter. Here are pics of the oil pan and filter adapter.
     

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  3. scootermcrad
    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
    Posts: 13,070

    scootermcrad
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  4. scootermcrad
    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
    Posts: 13,070

    scootermcrad
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    You're pictures didn't show up (or I can't see them anyway).

    What trans adapter are you using, for what transmission? I assume this wouldn't be a concern if this were an extended block 331?

    EDIT: I see the pics now...
     
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  5. HemiRambler
    Joined: Aug 26, 2005
    Posts: 4,015

    HemiRambler
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    Here's a thread where I showed a picture of a POOR MAN'S oil filter adapter:
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91812&highlight=filter


    Caution when using the 340 oil pump - PAW (I think) recently had a problem with the adapter thickness - end result was to prevent the oil drive tang from being FULLY engaged - which leads to breakage. Happened to a fella here just last year - fresh motor - run fine for a short while - broke on the road - not pretty.
     
  6. scootermcrad
    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
    Posts: 13,070

    scootermcrad
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    VERY important things to take note of! Thanks for that bit and the warning!
     
  7. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 6,722

    George
    Member

    The 318/340 HV oil pump puts out only 3.5 % more volume than the stock pump on the 392 (haven't heard any #s vs the 331/354).When you compare prices of OEM pump vs adaptor & new pump it comes out about the same, or it did when I built mine a few yrs ago. The only advantage I can see of the new pump would be if yours fails & you notice it before any damage is done. Yopu could easily find/replace the 340 pump.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2014
  8. 4tford
    Joined: Aug 27, 2005
    Posts: 1,486

    4tford
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    The adapter was from PAW for a turbo 400. Your right it would be OK for the extended housing.
     
  9. 4tford
    Joined: Aug 27, 2005
    Posts: 1,486

    4tford
    Member

    You have to know the depth of your intermediate shaft from gear to pump drive or you will have a failure. Some 340 conversions require a different length intermediate than std. Enquire before you purchase or you will have the failure HemiRambler is talking about.
     
  10. krooser
    Joined: Jul 25, 2004
    Posts: 4,587

    krooser
    Member

    Note...truck/industrial/passenger cars all need a DIFFERENT adaptor for the Hot Heads 340 oil pump conversion....and that is not mentioned anywhere in their literature nor did they ask what motor I was running when I ordered the pump....cost me a weeks delay...
     
  11. scootermcrad
    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
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    scootermcrad
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    Another great tip! Thank man!! Good to know!!
     
  12. bulletproof1
    Joined: Feb 23, 2004
    Posts: 2,081

    bulletproof1
    Member
    from tulsa okla

    the pans seem to be the hardest to find .i need a mid or front sump for my 331 industrail.i can have it made into a mid or front but cant get a pickup tube to match it.and i also need a pan for my 55 331 car motor but you have to have a good core and i dont have one for that motor. someone took it off the car before i got it.
     
  13. DE SOTO
    Joined: Jan 20, 2006
    Posts: 3,823

    DE SOTO
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    I WONDER WHY SOME PEOPLE GET ALL WEIRD ABOUT THE ORIGINAL STUFF...

    THE STOCK STUFF WORKS JUST FINE ON MY DeSoto ..... BESIDES, BILLET ALUMINUM & HEMIS JUST DONT MIX, AND I WOULD HATE FOR SOME ""UPGRADE"" SHIT ... LIKE AN OIL FILTER ADAPTER ... TO RUIN MY NEWLY RE~DONE HEMI.

    KEEP IT SIMPLE, MOPAR HAD A GOOD THING WHEN THEY WAS NEW, WHY FUCK WITH IT !!!!!!!!!!!!! :cool:
     
  14. Clyde
    Joined: Mar 3, 2006
    Posts: 171

    Clyde
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    A windage tray is very inexpensive HP, most litature out there states that one can gain 5 - 10% HP gain from the use of a windage tray. Now this is for a SBC but it should be about the same for other applications. I have one ordered up for my SBC, $27.00 with shipping.
     
  15. scootermcrad
    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
    Posts: 13,070

    scootermcrad
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    I'm guessing most people here aren't talking about billet stuff. The stock will indeed work fine... if you can get one.

    As for the oil filter, I don't know how your DeSoto oil system works, but the Chryslers didn't filter all the oil on the first shot through the motor and now various companies make provisions to allow for ALL the oil to be run through the filter increasing the life of your motor and allowing you to get away with going more than 1000 miles between oil changes.

    As for the filter itself... I'll just let this picture of the stock oil filter do the talking for itself... do you really want this thing sticking out of your 32 Deuce coupe hood sides? (figuratively speaking)
    [​IMG]
    Try puting some lakes headers on a motor with that thing sticking out all over the place!
     
  16. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 6,722

    George
    Member

    The 51-53s had windage trays. I have a mod. FE Ford oil filter mount on my '55.
     
  17. scootermcrad
    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
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    :confused: Did all of them? My 53 absolutely did not and I'm pretty sure the pan had never been off and I didn't see any provisions for mounting one either. Am I missing something?
     
  18. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 6,722

    George
    Member

    I haven't had the pan off my 54 to check, but there is supposed to be a mounting spot between the 3rd & 4th caps. There's a photo in Tex smith's book.
     
  19. Hemi-roid
    Joined: Feb 12, 2006
    Posts: 131

    Hemi-roid
    Member
    from Cary, IL

    I used a stock Hemi oil pump from PAW for my rebuild. Bearing clearance was set at .001 to .0015. I have 80 Lbs of oil pressure cold, 40 at idle hot, and that's with synthetic 0w-30 oil. Unless you're racing, or there is some other problem, I can't see spending that kind of $$$$ on an aftermarket or hi-vol pump. Same for the oil pan. My 392 oiling system is completely stock except for a bypass block-off and oil filter adapter. Unless I missed something somewhere along the line, I don't think there was ever an oil deficiency problem with these engines. Any perceived deficiency was most likely in the quality of the oil available at that time. I have about 40,000 miles on mine so far, and it runs so good it oughta be a crime.
     
  20. scootermcrad
    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
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    Hemi-roid just made me think of something... When using the oil bypass block-off, will/should the oil flow rate and/or oil pressure change?
     
  21. krooser
    Joined: Jul 25, 2004
    Posts: 4,587

    krooser
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    I BOUGHT one of those on Ebay just BECAUSE it looks so cool.....and hundreds of early rails can't be wrong....that filter was the hot set-up for years!!!
     
  22. scootermcrad
    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
    Posts: 13,070

    scootermcrad
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    Really??! Why were they so hot?? Lugitimate question, not trying to be a smart ass. I haven't seen one in a long time actually being used. Haven't looked too hard either though. If you're running "lakes headers" or cut-outs do they interfere and do they interfere with early hoods?
     
  23. DE SOTO
    Joined: Jan 20, 2006
    Posts: 3,823

    DE SOTO
    Member

    THAT BIG ASS FILTER YOU SHOW IN THE PIC IS AND INDUSTRIAL or TRUCK FILTER FOR 331 CHRYLSER (and others) ..... THE STANDARD PASS CAR FILTER HOUSING IS NO BIGGER THAT A STANDARD PH8A FORD OIL FILTER.

    THE ONE ON MY SPORT COUPE HAS BEEN CHROMED AND LOOKS BITCHEN STICK'IN UP NEXT TO THE FRAME RAILS.

    OHHH, AND BY THE WAY, THE DeSoto HAS A FULL FLOW OIL SYSTEM & AN ANTI~DRAIN BACK VALVE TO KEEP THE FILTER FULL.

    MINE RUN ABOUT 40psi HOT WITH 40wt RACING VALVOLINE...

    DONT OVER THINK THESE OLD MOTORS GUYS, THEY KNOW WHAT THEY LIKE... COMPRESSION, IGNITION, & FUEL !!!!

    MINE ?? 11.5 to 1, VERTEX MAG, & SIX 97s ON A U~FAB :cool:
     
  24. scootermcrad
    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
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    Sounds rad! Post pics!

    BTW, that engine was pulled from a New Yorker and I'm pretty sure it wasn't touched. That should be the stock filter system for an extended bell 331. The '54 may have noted a change, but I'm not sure.


    What oil system parts on a DeSoto, Dodge, Chrysler, etc. are interchangeable?
     
  25. Swedester
    Joined: Aug 21, 2004
    Posts: 449

    Swedester
    Member

    ok,I took some fast,really crappy photos of:`55 331 rear sump pump,unknown year frontsump pump,and `55 331 filter.pic´s suck,I know....
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  26. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 6,722

    George
    Member

    The front sump pump looks a lot shallower than the rear sump pump. How far down does it hang? On a center sump pan how deep is it at both ends & center, how long is the sump area & how far forward from the back line of a rear sump pan would the sump be? Any problems putting a center sump pan & pump on a 331?
     
  27. joeelutz
    Joined: Jul 18, 2006
    Posts: 104

    joeelutz
    Member

    Do you mean all DeSoto's were full flow and had the anit drain back or just your DeSoto?

    I bought my 330 FireFlite already built. Is thee an easy way to check to see if it has been converted to full flow? Where did you get the anti drain back valve?

    Thanks,

    Joe
     
  28. scootermcrad
    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
    Posts: 13,070

    scootermcrad
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  29. scootermcrad
    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
    Posts: 13,070

    scootermcrad
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    Question...

    Anyone know off the top of their head what the difference is between a 51-54 oil pan mounting pattern vs. 55-58? I have a later pan and don't have an early block on hand (it's at the machine shop) to compare to. Can a later pan be modified to run on an earlier block?

    While we're on the subject, anyone have any "secret vendors" of pans? Getting hard to find early pans now.
     
  30. Skirv
    Joined: Jul 5, 2006
    Posts: 1,184

    Skirv
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