First Look - New Product - Logic Industries Fabricated Spindles

I've said it a few times, but it bears repeating, that my '36 is not a personal project so much as it is a test bed for new products I'm wanting to release.

I'm set to start chassis fab once I get my English Wheel finished and off the welding table, but in the mean time, I thought I'd kick things off by showing you guys the fabrication process involved in building the front spindles for said chassis.

The ultimate aim is to eventually offer a dual rail space frame type tube chassis that can be adapted to any rod with a wheelbase between 108" and 116" (which is a lot of them). My '36 is a 112" wheelbase, which is part of the reason I decided on that body to build the proof of concept under (the other is that I like the way it looks ).

This chassis will be geared more toward the autocross/road course guys who want a car that corners like a modern road race car. That means IFS, so obviously, it's not for guys wanting to build a fenderless car, but that still leaves a great many awesome body styles that could set atop it and look good doing it.

But enough about the chassis, this thread is about the spindles I needed to create the front suspension geometry I was after.

I thought Lefthander was going to come through for me, but no dice, so I had to do it myself.

Bear with me here, there are a lot of pictures, and it may take more than one post to get them all up.

First I worked up the design in 2D and ran some numbers by hand to make sure I wasn't smoking dope on the strength of the material and the geometry I wanted to use:





That hurdle passed, I then modelled the spindle in 3D and did some more intensive FEA to make sure I didn't have any sneaky weak spots. The design is good for cars up to 5,000 LBS:















I didn't have any problems strength wise (min FS = 9.75 = ), so I started fabrication.

First I had to turn the snouts. These spindles were for Wide Five racing hubs (AKA Late 40's Early 50's Ford & IH 3/4 ton hubs), so the snouts are very large. These started from lengths of 2.5" OD x 0.5" wall DOM round tube, which I mounted on adapters that were a light press fit to the ID before putting them into my engine lathe:









Now we turn:







More in the next post . . . . .

 

Continued from above.

And turn some more:







And turn even more:







Now we're ready to thread the nose:









After that one was finished, I checked to make sure it was going to fit the hub:

















Which it did, so I went back and did it all over again, so I would have two just alike.

Then it was on to the ball joint and tie rod taper bosses.

In this case, I am using heims for the tie rods, so only ball joint sockets are actually tapered inside.

Face and taper the tie rod bosses:





Continued in next post . . . . .

 

Continued from above.

The flat ones are for the ball joints:



Drill through them all:



Then Ream the tapers:





That does it for the ball joint bosses, now on to the steering arms:





Now it was time to cut the backing plates and supports from plate.

Did the layout on the computer:



Then cut them out on my new whiz-bang CNC Plasma machine:







Then I drilled and tapped the brake caliper mounts while they were still easy to get in the milling machine:



Next was the same process on the support pieces. The only difference is that these were cut from 11 gage instead of 1/4" like the backing plates.



That gets all the players together, now it's time to start welding.





First the steering arms and upper ball joint standoffs are assembled:











Continued in next post . . . . .

 

Continued from above.

Then the snout is mated to the backing plate:





By welding on both sides of the backing plate in almost every instance, total warpage was kept to zero. It pulled back and forth all through the process, but when it was all done (in the correct order), it settled out straight. That was my biggest worry that my calculations would be wrong and it would warp all out of shape, but it appears I wasn't FOS on that one (for once ).

Then I welded the steering arm onto the backing plate, and through the keyhole from the front side to bond the lower ball joint boss to the backing plate directly.



Next was the lower support structure:





Then the upper support structure:





I forgot to take pictures of the upper ball joint standoff and supports going on, but you can see them attached now in the finished assembly:









And do it all again to make a pair:



Next we machine the nut keeper keyway into the snouts:









Now we're on to finish work.

Knock off the spatter with a flap wheel:





Continued in next post . . . . .

 

Continued from above.

Then a quick bead blasting to remove all the crap:







And finally some nice black paint to match the hubs, and some brass plugs for the snouts so crap doesn't migrate up into the bearing grease from the back side:









Continued in next post . . . . . .

 

Continued from above.

Now we see if it all fits together like it's supposed to.

Hub seems to fit OK:













So far so good, lets add a caliper (yes, I know it's a LH caliper on the RH spindle, but it was on top of the stack and they're identical except for the location of the crossover and bleeder):















Almost there, just the ball joints to go:







And there you have it, from my twisted little brain to steel in about a hundred easy steps.

This process can be applied to any combination of parts a person might want to run.

Now you're not stuck using Mustang II, Pinto, and Granada parts just because that's what everyone used to use.

In this way, it is literally possible to make any hub and brake combination fit any chassis that has ever been built (or will be built). Any combination your heart desires.

Obviously, some are a lot easier than others to pull off, and cost will vary accordingly, but for something that doesn't require too much in the way of heroics (like the spindles shown above), it should be possible to keep the price under $650-$700 per pair.

That is custom made, just for you, for about 15% more than catalog parts.

And don't think this is limited to IFS systems either, straight axle spindles should actually be a little easier to build than these were.

That's all I've got, let me know what you all think.

 

I can't see pics

 

I love it good job, How much does your liability insurance cost you a year?

 

Give it a little bit.

The pics are pretty big, there are a lot of them, and my host has been flaky as hell for the last few days.

They load for me right now, but it took about five minutes to get all of them finished.

If they still won't load for you, try it again in a little bit.

Sorry guys, they're having hardware issues.

 

More than I'd like it to, but such is the nature of the beast.

Gotta pay if you want to play, ya know?

 

Just curious on what grade of steels you are using and is that Mig welded together?

 

wow!!! that is so cool... Might I suggest Tig welding them? They'd look even cooler!!!

 

fancy job!

My question is how will they hold up with an impact?

Also, be really pretty if TIG welded, or smoothed with a rolock.

Amazing work!

 

LOTS of work, nice job. The Magnesium hubs are sweet.

You can buy those 3/4 ton snouts from Howe or Bicknell.
Much easier than making them.
http://howeracing.com/p-7672-spindle-parts.aspx

 

This style of fabricated spindle has been used on
short track cars for probably 25 years now.

Several companies sell them.

 

Tig welding would add labor without appreciably adding to strength. When I subcontracted work from Howe Racing Enterprises my shop built thousands of spindles for oval track cars using the exact method described here. The overall criteria for these at the time was to reduce weight as the standard spindles were investment cast steel, HEAVY!!!. With the ball joint tapers and steering tapers being cnc turned and the flat stock components being lazer cut the production cost were drasticly lowered from the one-off method shown here. Prototype work is never cost effective just a necessary evel to arrive at a product that you HOPE will make a profitable return possible. Sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you. Anyone in business will know what I mean.

Frank

 

Theirs wasn't long enough to work with this setup.

I looked everywhere for some pre-fabbed snouts that were long enough, but to no avail.

The material is all 1018 hot rolled steel sheet, except for the snouts, which are 1018 hot rolled and cold finished DOM tube and the steering arms, which are 1020 HREW square tube.

The welding was done with an L-Tec MIG machine. Some of the welds are not my best work, appearance wise, but they are are all plenty strong, some of them are just not slick as glass on top. That machine is getting kind of flaky about the wire speed, and it's starting to show in the work. I've been putting it off, but I guess I'm gonna have to tear it down and rebuild it.

These assemblies will be as strong as a forged part under impact, and stronger than a cast one. Will they be destroyed if you hit another car or a big rock head on? Hell yes, they'll be bent up into a pretzel. Will they come apart any worse than any other forged or rolled suspension part? Nope, and they'll survive better than any cast part.

Strength is not an issue. The FEA I did assumed a 6,000 LB car, with 60% of the weight over the front tires. At that load, the tip of the snout underwent 0.003" of deflection (that's three thousandths of an inch), and the factor of safety was almost ten (9.75). I will be keeping my '36 under 3,000 LBS if at all possible.

Race cars weighing 3,500 LBS and cornering at 120 MPH+ can be found all over the country wearing spindles built in exactly this manner. Nothing you will do to them on the road will come close to be abuse they see on the race track.

 

Exactly.

If I can get the chassis developed to where I am happy with its performance, and it takes off with customers, production will look a lot different than the sequence I just showed you all.

As you say, prototype work is always more time intensive than you'd like it to be.

 

Once again you have come up with a great post and some bad ass workmenship.

 

Wow!!! Nice work!

 

Thank you sir.

Hopefully the three guys waiting on Lincoln buttons will forgive the two day delay that finishing up this project required.

I had to drive 30 miles yesterday to find a parts store with 1 1/2" brass freeze plugs in stock. And those were made in China.

You can't buy nothing made in this country anymore, ya know?

If we start making these as a production item, I will probably have the plugs turned in batches so I can keep away from that Chinese crap.

Just in case I wasn't clear in the initial posts, I will build another set just like this one for anyone that wants them, or something entirely different.

I am always interested in unique one-off projects. Those are always the most fun (and usually the biggest pains in the ass too ).

 

It occurred to me last night that maybe some guys would rather buy something like this as a U-Weld-It kit.

How many folks would that appeal to? It would be cheaper, obviously, but more work for the end user.

What do you all think on the subject?

 

Nobody has an opinion about selling them as a You-Weld-It kit?

 

hmm my opiniion on the u weld it kit would be dont because you may do a top notch job someone else may over estimate their ability to weld and get them selves in a world of dump a spindle is a critical part just my 2 cents worth

 

I'd be awfully careful about offering this as a u weld it kit. While you know the calibre of your work, there is no way for you to know what someone else is capable of. It doesn't take a real stretch of the imagination to envidsion some hack trying to weld your kit together and then having it fqil because what he imagines he can do being far outweighed by his actual capabilities. And then the pack of slobbering lawyers descend upon you...

DON"T DO IT!!!

 

"These assemblies will be as strong as a forged part under impact, and stronger than a cast one."

First I'd like to congratulate you on a valiant effort, I hope your plans work out for you. It does seem like a lot of work for not much money though.

I do take issue with your claim for strength, my expertise (such as it is) is with Industrial Forgings. I don't want to detract from your workmanship (which is good) however your choice of materials would not be used in the forging of this part, for two reasons; an engineer in specifiying a forging would opt for a higher carbon content with an added alloy, the selected alloy would allow the steel to flow faster and fill the die when hammered, the higher carbon content is necessary to compensate for carbon loss when the steel is overheated for the drop forging process, more carbon is allowed for than will be burned thus resulting in a higher carbon/strength part. The forging after leaving the die has a refined grain and stronger structure than in it's unforged state. Another important consideration is the post forging heat treatment which is used to stress relieve and normalise the part.

Materials aside IMHO were you to have these parts tested to destruction the forging will win. The weakness in your part would be in the welds, or the heat affected zones. 1018 would peel apart very easily compered to the flex a forging would tolerate before failure.

I'm not so knowledgeable on castings, however I suspect a steel casting would also win in the destructive testing stakes.

IMO you would be wise to follow others advice here regarding offering your product as a kit. At your asking price I would think you will need to value add as much as possible, so weld them yourself and control the quality. Also ask what colour or finish your customers would like them in and charge extra for that.

Good luck

 

Is your 36 going to have an altered wheelbase? Stock 36 is 112"

Nice work BTW!

 

The difference in strength VS carbon content is in section size and geometry.

Forged parts would have a greater tensile strength per unit area, but by necessity must be solid in cross section. You make up for weaker geometry (solid bar with a smaller section width, etc) by having a material of greater inherent strength.

Cast parts may or may not have a higher tensile strength, but they will be more notch sensitive than the rolled material.

All that is wonderful, but irrelevant, because as designed, these spindles have a factor of safety of nearly ten (10). If I'd have used higher carbon material, they would have needed a post welding heat treatment, AND they would be no more durable. Having a factor of safety of 25 instead of 10 is not a selling point, it's overkill, and adds cost needlessly.

Now, if I was making parts for cars heavier than 6,000 LBS, or with a spindle snout of smaller diameter than the W5, I would likely opt to build the snout from an alloy that could be welded without post treatment, but that was stronger than 1020.

I will never understand the mentality that assumes that a suspension part should survive a crash without damage.

If you hit something, you're going to bend parts, end of story. Operative term there is bend, not break. HAZ is much less a big deal with hot rolled parts, as they are already annealed to start with. The weld is going to be every bit as strong as the rest of the material. Cold rolled would suffer a line of weakness in the HAZ because the cold work would have been removed there (of course, that's not a big deal, if you design to the annealed strength not the cold worked strength).

Material strength does not always equal assembly strength. It is entirely possible for an assembly made from 1020 to surpass the in-service strength of one forged from 4140. It's all about geometry.

That said, I know that a properly designed forging could be made to be stronger than this fabrication, BUT since the fabrication is already nearly ten times stronger than necessary, it's pointless to ponder increasing the strength further.

Also, realize that this method is not meant to totally supplant forged suspension parts, but rather allow the construction of odd-ball one of a kind parts that cannot be economically produced by forging.

I will take the advice about the U-Weld-It kits though, I had similar misgivings myself.

In a perfect world, if you made shitty welds and it killed you, that'd be YOUR fault, not mine, but as we all know, we do not currently live in a perfect world.

 

No, you're right its WB is 112"

I should have looked at the drawing instead of working from memory.

The chassis will work with any wheelbase within about 4" of 112", so anything from 108" to 116" would be functional. Any longer or shorter, and the main rails will need to be altered.

Thanks for the catch, I'll fix the first post.

 

I don't see any ackerman built in, nice machining skills though !