'51-'53 Chrysler Hemi starter interchange

So the 1951-1953 331 Chrysler Hemi with the extended bell block uses a different starter than all the rest of the early Chrysler Hemis of their generation. Different flywheel tooth count, etc...

So what starters can be used?

So far I've learned that the following will work:

* Hollander #574
* all '49 and '50 Chrysler starters
* '51-'53 Chrysler V8 (obviously)
* '51 Desoto
* '52 Desoto (less power steering)
* '51-'54 Desoto V8
* and the fancy shmancy Powermaster #9530

So did these have a 146 tooth flywheel, or another count?

Can anyone add to this list of compatible starters?

Anything anyone could add would be appreciated!

Thanks!

 

I don't know for sure, but was told that early 12 volt hemi starters work on the inline 6's, so maybe the reverse is true as well?

 

Would depend on the year and ultimately the tooth count on the flywheel.

I don't think any of the 12-volt starters will work on the 51 to 53 Hemis.

What is the tooth count on you your inline 6 flywheel?

 

Best I can figure there were 2 different tooth counts: 146 and 172 teeth. Both were on the same diameter flywheel: 13.56"; so the pitch of the 146 t was .315" and the pitch of the 172t was .267".

Unclear to me when the change came, but probably different amongst the different Mopar makes.

It was a few years ago, but George Aasche (old flat 6 guru) was the one who told me to use an early hemi 12v starter on the 6 when I switched to 12 volts. But he can be a little overwhelming to talk to, so I might have missed some detail.

I think I actually bought a starter as insurance against my 6volt one going out. I'll have to go look for it.

 

Thanks woody! And I believe you're correct about the 146 and the 172 being the two available.

So, maybe someone can tell us what all mopars (6 or 8 cyl.) that had a 146 tooth flywheel, around that time.

BTTT for the subject.

 

Okay... this needs to go back up!

Anyone have more info or anything to add???

 

My old Schiefer flywheel listing shows a flywheel that they claim will work on all Chrysler products from 1933-56, so, assuming that information to be correct, I would think that they made the move to 172 teeth in '57.

 

Wow! Interesting! Thanks for that bit of info. Maybe someone can expand on that.

I appreciate the effort to look it up! It helps a bunch of people, not just myself. Hats off!

 

Your on the right track. Chrysler's had 146 teeth thru '56 with '56 being the only year for a 12 V starter and the early tooth count. Earlier passenger car units were 6" volt only. That makes the '56 starter the one to pursue for the earlier tooth count AND 12 V operation. Or just stick with the 6 V starter and feed it 12 V. It'll live for quite some time on 12 V providing the engine is in good tune and starts with a reasonable amount of cranking.

 

Yeah, I agree with the 12 volt fed to the 6 volt starter. Accessive cranking will burn it up for sure, but a well tuned engine that starts on contact should be alright. I had considered doing a rewind on mine as well. Still trying to get quotes on that.

So we think starters up to 1956 were good then. I guess the other question would be, do they all have the same mounting location up to 1956? In othewords, are all the mounting holes the same up through 1956?

 

I need to keep this one going until we have some solid answers to the questions mentioned.

In the mean time, here's my stock starter complete with stock mud and gunk!







Also, here is a potential starter that maybe someone can identify. (THANKS PAUL!!!)Tag was unreadable, but maybe someone can tell what it is. I will take some measurements to check snout depth and gear engagement when I get a chance. The mounting ears aren't quite as beefy, but at first glance appears to be interchangeable.

 

Also, here's some numbers provided by O.Hove from "24th Hollander interchange bible"...

The #'s are=MCL 6101 ,6108 , 6109,6116,6121,6121A
MCH 6113,MCH 6113A
DeSoto 51 to 54 except 6 cyl with P.S.

 

QUESTION! Does anyone know what the tooth count was on a 1955 Desoto 291 flywheel? Any chance it may fit an extended bell Chrysler??

 

Back up!

 

Do you need a flywheel?

 

Yes but had been eyeing an aluminum one. Thunk it a good combination for the 6-speed. Or not. Researching. So yes, I might need one...

 

Here's a pic of the tooth count for the 51-53 Extended bells and then the powermaster starter you would need.




I'll go get the info off the starter that came with my 331 and post some pics too.

 

Here's the pics of my 331 Hemi extended bell starter...well at least the 6 volt unit that came with it..







Looks alot like yours scooter...less the original mud and crud....

 

Not the original point of this thread, but I would like to add that anyone using the GM auto adapters from wilcap or hot heads needs a late model Mopar starter that fits the 130 tooth flywheel.

 

Hey guys,

Just jumping into this thread. I recently picked up a '52 331. I spoke w/ Pat from Wilcap today about getting one of their adapters. During the discussion, he mentioned the late 30s to mid 50s MOPAR inline 6 flywheels to me and said this was an inexpensive solution for the flywheel. This seems to resonate w/ other information mentioned above.

Man, they sure are proud of those Powermaster #9530 starters - pricey

I'm not cheap but I have a budget. I think I'll look for the I-6 Flywheel and the '56 MOPAR I-6 12V starter.


Tom

 

Tom, does he sell 146T Flywheels for 6 cyl. mopars for cheaper than the V8 stuff?? Guess I thought they were the same...

 

No, he meant I could try to locate one and get it surfaced, as there were a ton produced. He said they can be a challenge to find with good tooth rings.

Most new ones are in the $400 range from what I can tell.

 

Ahhh.... gotcha! I see what you mean. And YES, most are in the $400 range. CRAZY money! I've been staring at the aluminum flywheel for awhile.... big bucks.

 

There was a 56 12V 331/354 Hemi starter on E-bay recently...think it sold for around $75.

I was watching it to see what they seem to be worth...not that they come up for sale too often.

 

Yeah, they aren't really expensive starters when you see them. There are absolutely TONS of them out there. I think people just don't really know what they have so they get listed as a MOPAR starter and then it's up to the shopper to figure out if it's the right one. If you think about all the Chrysler and Desoto motors that were out there that had these and then factor in replacements, NOS, and all that... there must be PILES of them out there. Just finding where they're at and getting a good I.D..

 

This looks good. I checked a pile of wheels and all of the early pieces have 146T.

The starters may have a similar design but I have checked the three oem alum plates and found that the starter placement does move slightly. This is not a concern with the early 331, except as it relates to using a 12v piece.
In conversation with a rebuilder he suggested that many manufactures actually would swing the starter toward or away from the ring gear so that the same pinion gear could be used against differing ring gears. The shape of the pinion gear tooth allows this to work.

The odd part here is; WTF does the power steering have to do with the starter ??

As before, it should share the 146 T count.

I have an additional pile of 4 and 6 bolt wheels that I will measure and count, this gets us back into the 30's and 40's so we can verify the Schiefer info. Dang, this is almost getting fun... Although I have 2 of the early 331 I do not have a housing bottom so I cannot bolt on different starters and check the fit. Maybe we should send some starters to scooter and have him do trial fitments.....

Gary

 

OK now I am confused. I thought I knew what flywheel I needed but when I got home tonight I took a look at my extended bellhousing 331. Mine originally had the fluid drive transmission, and this is the "flex plate" I have currently bolted to the crank. I have a starter housing coming but it will be a week or two 'till it comes. Is the flywheel diameter mentioned above (13.56") correct? Mine is about 1" bigger. How could this be? Is the starter head/pinion gear positioned differently but uses the same mounting configuration?

 

I always ask the guy at Pep Boys the SAME THING! LOL!

 

Ok, here is some additional info. I went through the wheel pile and made notes and took some pics....I previously assumed that 4 and 6 bolt wheels were older versions, and perhaps this holds true for the 4 bolt, but, the 6-bolt appears to have been used on later 6-cyl engines.

I haven't added anything to this collection of flywheels for almost 20 years so most details of what-where-when are lost.

This wheel is 15.75 dia (face of gear teeth) but has 146 teeth. The 15.7 on the wheel is dia, not tooth count. No clue about the dual bolt pattern,....this is the crank side


I removed this wheel from a 392 powered crawler-tractor, yeah, like a dozer. I have had this wheel for over 30 years so


the details of the install are long gone.

This is the output side.

I also have another large dia wheel with the 146 count so this is not a one-off.

Here is an industrial wheel, this is the crank side, note the bolt holes...


No drive holes in the outboard face...yes it is a bit heavy...


It seems unusual, not sure what it was driving, and then I found another one...
Well used, but no bolt holes for driving anything from this side...



At some point a salvage yard employee marked this 4-bolt wheel with his trusty yellow marker...this seems to confirm the change in tooth count between the 56 and 57 model years.


this 6-bolt wheel also marked at the bone yard


I will assume that the guy marking the wheel knew what it came out of, however, this is a real curious item since all other info tells us that the crank change occured in 62, not 63. Maybe a hold-over ? maybe it was a 62 truck and mis-identified? Engine swap? The 171 apparently refers to the tooth count which should be 172.
I have seen many of the early 8-bolt RB cranks, but never a 6-bolt version (this is NOT the same as later 6-bolt patterns)...so why have a 6-bolt, 172 tooth wheel in 62-63?

Here is another 6-bolt wheel marked as 1959 6-cyl

Now I wonder if a wheel like this was used as a replacement in the truck above. Note that the ring gear is missing so with a new ring you could have either 146 or 172 tooth.
Some, but not all, of the wheels appear to have a removeable ring gear.

In my wheel pile, the 146 and 172 counts are both found on 14.75 (gross dia) wheels.


Gary

 

Thanks Gary and thanks for the help via PM. This seems to verify that the diameter of the "flex plates" used with the fluid drives are the same as the flywheels (with the ring gear attached). Now I can sleep

I believe my direction will be to pursue an 8-bolt 146 tooth flywheel and a "matching" '56 MOPAR 12V starter. It appears this will fit.

Thanks again, Tom