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Old 05-05-2010, 10:15 AM   #141
dawford
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

exwestracer,

I looked on ebay and but couldn't find one for a Toyota. Please give us more information or a photo.

I would be interested and could use one with a return hose Model A thermostat.

I planned to use an electric water pump because I could set it up with thermo switches to come on and shut off as the engine heats and cools.

I planned to have an override switch to turn the pump on if the engine got hot.

I also planned to have a high temp switch hooked to a loud (I'm very hard of hearing) buzzer to warn me if the engine was getting too hot.

But a belt driven water pump is worthy of consideration.

Thanks for the input.

Dick
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:52 AM   #142
Super88
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Other than it says MerCruiser on it, I don't have any other info on this motor other than it was listed as 140 h.p., so I apologize if it's not what you're looking for.
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:50 AM   #143
dennis g
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawford View Post
exwestracer,

hooked to a loud (I'm very hard of hearing) buzzer to warn me if the engine was getting too hot.
But a belt driven water pump is worthy of consideration.
Dick, You will not hear the buzzer. We [ I'm hard of hearing too] might hear a car horn, but it would startle, so use a clearance light it mounts easily is big and is impossible to miss. I changed to that for my oil pressure light as a red light came on and I'd forgotten what it was for. I wrote "OIL" on the lens of the clearance lamp.
I'd use belt-driven water pump as failures come on slowly. Some tractors used pumps which could be made stand-alone. Allis Chalmers would probably do.
That is not to say that the electric pump would not be good. It could save power but I can see more ways for it to fail.
I'm impressed with your frame bracing. You could haul a yard of concrete on it. [My frame came boxed from the factory.]
Dennis

Last edited by dennis g; 05-05-2010 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 05-05-2010, 01:35 PM   #144
dawford
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

dennis g,

You haven't heard the buzzer that I have in mind.

If you are worried about the frame flexing that far back on the frame (about 12 to 16" behind the front cross member you could build a 2X2 square girdle to go under the engine and connect to the frame under the motor mounts but I dont think that will be necessary with a factory built frame.

You are right a yard of concrete weighs about 3900 lbs and I believe this frame would haul that kind of load, now the springs are another question.

A Model A pickup was rated at 1/4 ton but most contractors hauled 1/2 ton of sand if they could get it in and they didn't even have a boxed frame.

The abuses that the average surviving Model A Ford have had would boggle the mind. In their day most roads weren't even paved. Lucky to be gravel. Some City streets were brick, cobblestone or concrete but many were still dirt or gravel. A very few country highways were paved at all.

They called the Model T a Tin Lizzie but Henry made his cars out of very good tin.

Ford wasn't very well educated but he educated himself. He very earley on studied
European steel plants and discovered that Vanadium steel was very durable and had great strength. He thus figured out that he could build light weight frames that were stronger than his competitors.

The added cost of the alloy was almost completely offset by the reduction in the amount of steel he had to use.

The added benifit was that his cars were durable in comparison to most others. That is why the April Hemmings Motor News has less than 2 pages of 1911-1954 chevrolets and 7 pages of 1928-1953 fords. 31 chevys from 1917 to 1940 and 192 1919 to 1940 fords.

I'm not knocking Chevy's I love them to and would like to find a nice early 6 cylinder chevy to put a clifford equiped 292ci in.

Star made millions of cars and was a major producer in the Model T days but I have only seen 1 ever and it was a wreck.

I love old cars.

Dick

Last edited by dawford; 05-05-2010 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 05-05-2010, 02:13 PM   #145
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Dawford,


I just Googled "Toyota water pump" images... There are others like this as well, but this is pretty close to the one I used years ago. I just used a restrictor in the return line to the rad instead of a thermostat, but there are a number of inline stat housings available too.
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Old 05-05-2010, 05:17 PM   #146
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

4.6 Fords have nice small water pumps that flow lots of water. There are also nice electric water pumps that might work too. You could even hide it someplace.
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Old 05-05-2010, 08:34 PM   #147
dawford
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

exwestracer,

What does the other side of that pump look like and what model does it fit?

I have been trying to avoid having too many pulleys on the front of the crankshaft so as to keep the engine as far forward as possible.

However when I layed the pan which has the oil pump forward in approximate position yesterday I found that the limiting factor won't be the front pullies but rather the pan clearing the cross stearing rod.

The good news was that I will be able to use the 525 steering box rather than the vega box because there is plenty of clearance between the frame rail and the engine. This box has a quicker ratio than the vega box and since it is going into the light weight RPU it should work very well.


This is a 160 degree hose thermostat for a Model A Ford.

Dick
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:23 PM   #148
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Supper88,

The engine that you posted pictures of is the 3.0 chevrolet commercial engine that Mercruiser installs in their 140hp stearndrives. It is not as easily modified for performance as is the 3.7.

I recommend the 3.0 for those who are seeking reliability and reasonable performance for their Model A.

If you want an easy to install 4 cylinder engine in your light car the 3.0 is very good. It is what I planed to install untill I saw the potential of the 3.7.

The 3.7 Mercruiser is the kind of the sleeping giant of the big block 4 cylinder world. It can be modified greatly and still have reasonable reliability and it is lighter and much more robust than the 3.0.

The 3.7 will provide the kind of torque that is really fun in a car of this weight.

It is not going to go in a streight line as fast as a blown Chrysler. But I won't have to have 12" rear tires and it won't sound like a thrashing machine or have the engine sticking out of the hood either.

If you want to look fast and go extremely fast go with an overhead V8.

If you want to look slow and go very fast go with the 3.7 Mercruiser.

Good pictures.

Dick

Last edited by dawford; 05-05-2010 at 09:32 PM. Reason: spelling and grammer
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Old 05-06-2010, 02:58 AM   #149
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawford View Post
exwestracer,

What does the other side of that pump look like and what model does it fit?

I have been trying to avoid having too many pulleys on the front of the crankshaft so as to keep the engine as far forward as possible.

However when I layed the pan which has the oil pump forward in approximate position yesterday I found that the limiting factor won't be the front pullies but rather the pan clearing the cross stearing rod.

The good news was that I will be able to use the 525 steering box rather than the vega box because there is plenty of clearance between the frame rail and the engine. This box has a quicker ratio than the vega box and since it is going into the light weight RPU it should work very well.


This is a 160 degree hose thermostat for a Model A Ford.

Dick
Dick, the back of the housing is rounded and the only attachment point is through a flange where the water flows into the front of the block (at top in the previous photo. I believe the one I had came off the old 7M series inline 6 engines (Supra), but I can't remember for sure.

In this photo, you can see the water pump sitting next to the block just above the alternator. PLEASE pardon the bling photo! I just cribbed it from Google. Most of the pics of these engines are in the car, showing off their giant turbos....

One thing I liked about these pumps is they can be indexed and mounted anywhere. I had designed one for a project that mounted it back along the block (like the REALLY old cars) and drove through a rag joint and steering intermediate shaft with an industrial shaft pulley. We never went that route with the build, though...
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:34 PM   #150
dawford
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

exwestracer,

Thanks for the info and the great picture that looks like a winner if I choose to go with a belt driven water pump.

Thanks again, Dick
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:45 PM   #151
exwestracer
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

No problem, Dick. I know a number of people who've convinced themselves that electric water pumps are the answer on the street...and then tried it. Hope it works better for you if you go that route.
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Old 05-06-2010, 03:58 PM   #152
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawford View Post
Supper88,

The engine that you posted pictures of is the 3.0 chevrolet commercial engine that Mercruiser installs in their 140hp stearndrives. It is not as easily modified for performance as is the 3.7.

I recommend the 3.0 for those who are seeking reliability and reasonable performance for their Model A.


Dick

WHAT!? You better tell the thousands of racers across the country and the vast aftermarket industry the 2.5/3.0 (153/181) supports for the midget and sprint car folks that these motor don't work very well.

Aluminum heads, alcohol injection, big cams and even full-on aftermarket blocks are available/based on the old 153 Chevy II motor and these make excellent hot rod motors. Ease of installation/adaptability, weight and size allow these motors to be put in almost any of the lighter rods. Don't get me wrong, the 3.7 is the king of easy to make torque and definitely has a 'dare to be different' flair but discounting the 2.5/3.0 as a motor that is not adaptable to high performance applications is totally inaccurrate information considering the 40 years of racing history the motor enjoys.

Here's a link to some 2.5/3.0 info...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...4835&showall=1


-Bigchief.
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Old 05-07-2010, 12:19 AM   #153
dawford
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

BigChief,

I know that the 2.5 and 3.0 chevys are used in many race cars and that they can be made to make big Hp at high rpm.

My reference was to the use in regularly driven street Model A's not race cars.

I think the reason that Randy DuPre destroked his 3.7 mercruiser was so that he could run in the 183ci class and he competed very well with the chevys.

I didn't intend to take away from the 2.5/3.0 chevys. I think I was trying to say that big cubic inches produce big torque and that the 3.7 is an easy way to make reliable torque and hp without spending a lot of money.

As you said "Don't get me wrong, the 3.7 is the king of easy to make torque and definitely has a 'dare to be different' flair"

I did not intend to discount the 2.5/3.0 as a motor that is not adaptable to high performance applications.

I am sorry that I left you with that impression.

Dick

Last edited by dawford; 05-07-2010 at 12:25 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 05-07-2010, 04:09 AM   #154
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Does anyone know what one of these MerCruiser 3.7 engines weigh when fully assembled ?
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Old 05-07-2010, 08:12 AM   #155
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Warpspeed,

While I have not assembled one yet I have weighed the individual components and I think they will come in at about 300 lbs. The bare block and hefty steel main caps weigh less than 100lbs.

A counter balanced Model B crank weighs 59lbs. The Mercruiser 3.7 crank weighs 11lbs more at 70lbs.

A mustang T5 weighs about 65lbs. The steel Lakewood bellhousing weighs about 31lbs. I have a Chevy Astro aluminum bellhousing, (it has the Ford trans pattern) that probably weighs about 12lbs, but I haven't figured out how to set the Astro bellhousing up yet.

I am using Ford Ranger pickup rear ends with 5 on 5 1/2 adapters on the 2 fendered cars and a 9" f-150 rearend on the open wheeled RPU. The front brakes are 48-52 f-1 11' drums and spindles.

I figure that the engine, trans and rear end swap into a stock Model A Ford will be close to a push as far as weight is concerned.

I will try to post the final weights when I know what they are. That isn't probibly going to be for a while as I also have Home and an extensive garden to attend to.

Dick
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Old 05-07-2010, 08:27 AM   #156
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Thanks for that Dick.
One other question, the overall length of the engine ?

I have been looking at a lot of different options for a Model A, and want something fairly light and compact. So far, an LSX engine looks pretty good for weight, size and power.
But if a Merc 3.7 is that light, it certainly has a great deal of potential.
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Old 05-07-2010, 09:05 AM   #157
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Warpspeed,

The overall length will be about 26 to 27".

My model A's are not low to the ground so I am mounting the engine low in the frame. This will minimize the amount of firewall I will have to modify.

The T5 with the S-10 tailshaft will bring the shifter back a few inches but will clear the front seat and look ok.

The major attraction other than performance and weight is the fact that the engine dosn't have a lot of modern looking peripherals hanging all over it.

With a Powermaster Alternator that looks like a generator the engine looks like a simple 4 cylinder engine. Painted Ford green it will look like it was meant to be in a Model A.

I think that if driven reasonably with the overdrive T5 it will get better gas mileage than the current Model A engines that I have.

But then who is going to drive it reasonably with all of that torquing hp.

I think Henry would like it. I know I will.

Dick

Last edited by dawford; 05-07-2010 at 09:07 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 05-07-2010, 09:20 AM   #158
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

Once again, thanks for the info Dick.
I will start looking around for one of these engines. It seems to have quite a few things going for it, as well as being pretty unique.
It should also fit fairly well into an A, as well as bolt up fairly readily to a good selection of transmissions.
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Old 05-08-2010, 08:57 AM   #159
tjm73
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

I must say I have very happy to see so much activity on this topic. I still hope to build a T with one of these 3.7's backed by a full manual shift 700R4. Until then, I'll enjoy the pictures and progress.
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Old 05-08-2010, 09:29 AM   #160
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Default Re: The elusive 224/3.7 MerCruiser banger

heres another tip for you guys,use the mercruiser head gasket from mercruiser,it has some sealant on it that you must have or you will have head gasket leaks,they are just as cheap as any other gasket.
Your local parts house will have gaskets,but they always leaked water over by the lifter wall.
Go to Mercruiser and get the gaskets.
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