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Old 01-29-2008, 05:39 PM   #1
fattrodder
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Default quarter elliptic spring front end

would like to see some set ups on anyones car.thinking about doing mine on my 29 truck modified. any photos will help
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Old 01-29-2008, 10:11 PM   #2
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

here's a couple I did
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Old 01-29-2008, 10:12 PM   #3
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

41 chevy pickup
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Old 01-29-2008, 10:38 PM   #4
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Quote:
Originally Posted by 067chevy View Post
here's a couple I did
Just asking....how are you going to control the lateral movement while cornering? Or do you think the springs will do it.
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:40 AM   #5
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

To answer jj mack: I have a '27 Lakes roadster with pretty short springs and haven't detected any lateral movement. My son's '27 has much longer springs, like the one's on 067chevy's first pic. He drove it for a few years with no problems, but I was curious about movement. The springs on his are about an inch away from the frame so I put thick nylon rubbing blocks on the frame at the outer end with about a 1/16 inch gap. It appears that the springs seldom touch the rubbing blocks.
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:50 AM   #6
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

had no problems. That was the first one I built and went to a guy in cal. He loved it. since then I have done a couple more. The last one I did I got alot of behind the wheel time and it road and drove great. I had no problem with laderal movement. I guess if you wanted to you could add panhard bar
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Old 01-30-2008, 08:54 AM   #7
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

here is another. the second one I did using an F-1 front spring cut
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:24 AM   #8
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

What springs are you guys using for your 1/4 lipstick? I have built these on rockcrawlers before, but never on a hot rod, and think it is a GREAT idea. I know Posies sells the springs, but for that price, I can go wtih other options.
What year F1's are those?

Thanks
DIma
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:29 AM   #9
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

I've heard of guys using trailer springs but I use whatever i have from f-1 to model a springs. the one in the picture ar 51 f-1 springs and had to make a brass bushing to use the speedway shackels
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:31 AM   #10
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

these on this one were model a springs
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:43 AM   #11
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

What front axle is this? That is exactly what I am hoping mine to look like, just a bit taller maybe.

dIma

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these on this one were model a springs
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Old 01-30-2008, 09:51 AM   #12
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

That alxe is a 37 to 41 and I like using it because it is 49" wide narrower than the rest of the ford beam axles
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Old 01-30-2008, 10:55 AM   #13
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

I had a set built at a local spring shop, but decided not to using em. They built em based on the ~weight of the car. They were cheap. Il make someone a hell of a deal on em is interested.
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Old 01-30-2008, 10:58 AM   #14
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

067 Chevy, was that a front or rear Model A spring? Or does it matter, are you maybe adjusting the rate with how long the spring is (after you cut it)?
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Old 01-30-2008, 11:18 AM   #15
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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Originally Posted by nexxussian View Post
067 Chevy, was that a front or rear Model A spring? Or does it matter, are you maybe adjusting the rate with how long the spring is (after you cut it)?
I am guessing that is the front (the rear has the MASSIVE arch in it)

Dima
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:05 PM   #16
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatty View Post
I am guessing that is the front (the rear has the MASSIVE arch in it)

Dima

I figured they were short enouh that it might not be visibly appearent with them installed.
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:26 PM   #17
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

used the front model a sprin and the front 51 f-1 spring
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Old 01-30-2008, 12:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Quote:
Originally Posted by fattrodder View Post
would like to see some set ups on anyones car.thinking about doing mine on my 29 truck modified. any photos will help
Made these from trailer springs,$8 each.
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:47 PM   #19
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Here is a picture of how I did it with my old frame. I welded a pocket to the bottom of each frame rail. The springs are sandwiched into that pocket and located by the center bolt. There was NO side to side movement. I cut a F-100 leaf spring in half and drilled new center bolt holes. I did it this way so that the frame looked cleaner than mounting them on the sides. With the shackle, the frame rails sat lower than the axle.
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:32 PM   #20
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakesmod View Post
Made these from trailer springs,$8 each.
Dont you need a shackle on that?
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:51 PM   #21
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Here's mine
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Old 01-30-2008, 04:52 PM   #22
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Not if it is a locating link.
The springs create a 4-bars arrangement.

And you don't need a Panhard Bar.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jj mack View Post
Dont you need a shackle on that?
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:16 PM   #23
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Quote:
Originally Posted by nobux View Post
Here is a picture of how I did it with my old frame. I welded a pocket to the bottom of each frame rail. The springs are sandwiched into that pocket and located by the center bolt. There was NO side to side movement. I cut a F-100 leaf spring in half and drilled new center bolt holes. I did it this way so that the frame looked cleaner than mounting them on the sides. With the shackle, the frame rails sat lower than the axle.
I located mine on the outide of the frame rail so I didn't have to Z the frame and it also puts the spring outwards on the axle if that make any difference. I thout it would but I'm no engineer.
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Old 01-30-2008, 05:35 PM   #24
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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Originally Posted by Unkl Ian View Post
Not if it is a locating link.
The springs create a 4-bars arrangement.
Not really...the spring lengthens (from the mounting point to the eye) when it is flexed. With the upper "bar" maintaining a fixed length, the lower (spring) expanding and contracting...the angle of the axle will change..........

If shackle will allow this movement with out effecting the angle.
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Old 01-31-2008, 07:30 AM   #25
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Quote:
Originally Posted by fattrodder View Post
would like to see some set ups on anyones car.thinking about doing mine on my 29 truck modified. any photos will help

Here's how quarter elliptical springs were mounted on Northeast Dirt and Asphalt Modifieds in the mid 60's to early 70's. This is a pic of a car I built in the early 70's.

Transverse mounting using the original shackle pickup points on the stock radius rods.

Springs have eyes on both ends and pivot in the frame mount. Use a panhard bar or weld one shackle to control lateral movement.

The weight jacking bolts were to "wedge" and tune the chassis set-up. You could move these closer together to soften the spring rate.

It's compact and isn't hangin' out there in the breeze as with longitudinal mounted springs
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Old 01-31-2008, 08:01 AM   #26
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

DAMN! That's ALOT of setback.

So the white 'posts' sticking up on the front crossmember are the adjusters / weight jacks? I'm looking on a smaller screen than I'm used to.
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Old 01-31-2008, 08:19 AM   #27
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Modifieddriver, a clever setup. One question: Is the axle one piece or jointed in the middle?
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Old 01-31-2008, 09:01 AM   #28
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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Originally Posted by nexxussian View Post
DAMN! That's ALOT of setback.

So the white 'posts' sticking up on the front crossmember are the adjusters / weight jacks? I'm looking on a smaller screen than I'm used to.

The axle is a stock '42-'48 passcar. We used them 'cause they were the widest (KP to KP) old FORD axle and had the most drop of any stock axle. Not split in the middle. The old Allard sports cars had that and is was a disaster for camber change. FatMan and some others offer some PoS that's like that.

The white posts sticking up are threaded rod. Can't remember the diameter, but whatever it is, it was an overkill. Welded a nut to the 2" x 2" square tubing crossmember (I put it inside the tubing) and another nut to the end of the rod at the top. Crank the bolt up and down to adjust ride height initially, then once that's done (front and rear) then you can adjust the wedge.

There's a jam nut to lock it all in place to the crossmember. Worked like a champ.

I'm more weight concious now then back then. I'd use smaller diameter rod and shorten them up to about 1/3 the length you see there. I think we eventually did wack them off shorter.

AND Yeah, the engine set-back was 18" from the front axle center line to the face of the engine block. The car after that had 24" and it still wasn't enough (for dirt). The frame in the pic is a '53 Chevy passcar.

I included a pic of the rear suspension. A similar adjustment with a roller slider on Chrysler leaf springs. Back of the frame was kicked up to get more rear suspension travel.

Here's a pic of the completed car. I eventually ran 427's and 454's in it.
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Old 01-31-2008, 09:02 PM   #29
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Quote:
Originally Posted by jj mack View Post
Dont you need a shackle on that?
Look at this web site.

http://www.milleroffy.com/Photo%20&%...ery.htm#Photos

Go to "pictures"
Down 28 lines of pictures to a red Miller 122.

Fred
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Old 01-31-2008, 10:52 PM   #30
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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Originally Posted by lakesmod View Post
Look at this web site.

http://www.milleroffy.com/Photo%20&%...ery.htm#Photos

Go to "pictures"
Down 28 lines of pictures to a red Miller 122.

Fred
Look again, The reason it works on that car is....they use a spring on top and bottom....so the axle will stay at he the set angle as both should flex together. the pic above will not keep the axle on the same angle.

To prove it put the car on blocks...the axle and wheels should drop to their lowest point. Put an angle finder on the axle. Then use a floor jack and jack up the axle till the car is just about to come off the block...this should be the highest point.

Ill bet you a beer the angle changes as the spring straightens out.........

JJ
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Old 01-31-2008, 11:51 PM   #31
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

jj mack, take another look... his setup has top mounted bars in addition to the bottom mounted quarter elipticals. think hairpins. his caster angle will remain the same during suspension travel, just as unkl ian mentioned in his four-bar analogy
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Old 02-01-2008, 08:26 AM   #32
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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Originally Posted by FiddyFour View Post
jj mack, take another look... his setup has top mounted bars in addition to the bottom mounted quarter elipticals. think hairpins. his caster angle will remain the same during suspension travel, just as unkl ian mentioned in his four-bar analogy
HUH?

Look here.

http://www.milleroffy.com/miller_122...e_rear_web.jpg

Spring on top....spring on bottom...both will more the same like a 4 bar. Change one from a spring to a bar..it wont work.

The only point to this is....Lakemods setup will not work properly unless he adds a shackle or something else to control the axle angle.
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Old 02-01-2008, 09:15 AM   #33
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Easy enough to test.
Bolt it together with just the main leaf,and see what happens.
----
Shackles don't "control the axle angle".
They pivot on both ends.
Kind hard to control anything with 3 pivot points per side.

Shackles would make the problem worse,instead of better.
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Old 02-01-2008, 10:03 AM   #34
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unkl Ian View Post
Easy enough to test.
Bolt it together with just the main leaf,and see what happens.
----
Shackles don't "control the axle angle".
They pivot on both ends.
Kind hard to control anything with 3 pivot points per side.

Shackles would make the problem worse,instead of better.
I agree
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Old 02-01-2008, 10:36 AM   #35
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unkl Ian View Post
Easy enough to test.
Bolt it together with just the main leaf,and see what happens.
----
Shackles don't "control the axle angle".
They pivot on both ends.
Kind hard to control anything with 3 pivot points per side.
I buy that....

I think Turbo26T's pic is the correct way to do it...If he plans to use the the lower bar also.

I dont think that using a spring to replace a bar of a 4 link set up is a good thing.
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Old 02-01-2008, 10:45 AM   #36
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

you don't need 2 bars if you don't use a shackle. your spring is one bar. but I think you want your spring and bar parallel
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Old 02-01-2008, 11:04 AM   #37
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Here are a few photos of a T in WA state.








I don't know anything about it except it has a lot of nifty ideas in it and I like it.
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Old 02-01-2008, 11:22 AM   #38
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbo26T View Post
Here's mine
I can't think of any car manufacturer that mounted a spring with just the through bolt(s).
They always use a U bolt type fastener that surrounds the spring or a rolled end on the spring that surrounds the fastener in a way that allows the movements that are going to happen without placing the type of forces on the fastener that will loosen, bend or break it.
I think the flexing and twisting of the spring while moving down the road is going to either loosen and/or break those bolts.
I think you NEED to put U bolts on to to encapsulate the spring and hold it against the frame.

I may be wrong, but if I'm right you truely have a suicide front end.

At least drill and safety wire them.
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Old 02-01-2008, 12:54 PM   #39
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJ View Post
I can't think of any car manufacturer that mounted a spring with just the through bolt(s).
They always use a U bolt type fastener that surrounds the spring or a rolled end on the spring that surrounds the fastener in a way that allows the movements that are going to happen without placing the type of forces on the fastener that will loosen, bend or break it.
I think the flexing and twisting of the spring while moving down the road is going to either loosen and/or break those bolts.
I think you NEED to put U bolts on to to encapsulate the spring and hold it against the frame.

I may be wrong, but if I'm right you truely have a suicide front end.

At least drill and safety wire them.
Zipper Motors use two bolts to hold the spring,no u bolts.

www.zippermotors.com

The guy that has the modified I built(the one in the spring pitcures) drove it from Hot Rod-A-Rama(Tacoma) to Spokane and said it handles like a go-cart and rides great.The last time I talked to him he had over 3K miles on it.

Fred



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Old 02-01-2008, 01:55 PM   #40
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Here are the pics of what I did: http://www.myrideisme.com/Garage/pikesan/10/47/
I have the springs mounted inside the 2x3 frame with 2 thru bolts that are actually part of the headlight stand/shock mount. 3 years on the road and no problems. I check them very regularly (thanks Dr. J) and of course, I used Grade 8 with nylocks.
Let me know if you want any other kind of pictures.
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:40 PM   #41
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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Originally Posted by 067chevy View Post
you don't need 2 bars if you don't use a shackle. your spring is one bar. but I think you want your spring and bar parallel
4 bars work because you have fixed attachment points and the bars are a fixed length....Springs are not a fixed length.

As the spring flattens out...the distance from the mounting point to the eye lengthens. this will change the angle of the axle. The only way to prevent this is to add a shackle to compensate for the lengthening.

At the same time you will also need to use something...wishbone, radius arm, haipin, etc to control the axle angle.

The problem with lakemod's ...from My proscpective...is if he is using the pictured set up only....the angle will change.

I hope he tries it out as I mentioned before. And would like to hear the result.
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Old 02-01-2008, 04:27 PM   #42
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

If you use any 4 link with non parallel arms,or different lengths
top and bottom,or both,you will get some angular change through travel.

Just like on the back of many GM coil spring cars.

The common street rod "triangulated 4 bar" typically uses
different length arms top and bottom,mounted at different angles.

Not a problem.
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Old 02-01-2008, 04:30 PM   #43
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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Originally Posted by jj mack View Post
....the angle will change.
And then what happens ?




These cars are typically sprung stiff enough,
that the suspension travel is minimal.
Which makes any angular change small.
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Old 02-01-2008, 06:12 PM   #44
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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Originally Posted by Unkl Ian View Post
And then what happens ?




These cars are typically sprung stiff enough,
that the suspension travel is minimal.
Which makes any angular change small.
Bump steer. How much...I dont know.
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Old 02-01-2008, 06:12 PM   #45
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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Originally Posted by Unkl Ian View Post
If you use any 4 link with non parallel arms,or different lengths
top and bottom,or both,you will get some angular change through travel.

Just like on the back of many GM coil spring cars.

The common street rod "triangulated 4 bar" typically uses
different length arms top and bottom,mounted at different angles.

Not a problem.
Not the same analogy......
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Old 02-01-2008, 06:18 PM   #46
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Bottom Line.

I dont give a fuck how you build your car.

I think Lakemod's will cause problems. But it is his and he can do what he wants. At least maybe he'll think about it and check it out to make sure.

And I sure hope that if I post picks that someone thinks are fucked up some one says something about it. Isn't that why we post em?
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Old 02-01-2008, 06:25 PM   #47
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

The black '27 in the picture on page 1,(post #5) has a no-shackle arrangement, with the spring acting as one of the bars in the 4 bar set up. It's been on the road for 6 years with no problems and no bump steer. In a previous thread on this same subject, a number of people pointed out that some British sportscars (MG Midget, Healy Sprite?) used this arrangement in the rear.
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Old 02-01-2008, 06:34 PM   #48
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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The black '27 in the picture on page 1,(post #5) has a no-shackle arrangement, with the spring acting as one of the bars in the 4 bar set up. It's been on the road for 6 years with no problems and no bump steer. In a previous thread on this same subject, a number of people pointed out that some British sportscars (MG Midget, Healy Sprite?) used this arrangement in the rear.
Lets see some pics!!!
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Old 02-01-2008, 08:50 PM   #49
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

evil1 is working on a 30 Durant that used the Posie's set-up. It may help with ideas:

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil1 View Post
...a few more welds and on to the next step....steering....



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Old 02-01-2008, 08:53 PM   #50
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

The set-up I built, I used 1-rear leaf spring off a 57 Chevy and cut it in half. Then I bought 2 sets of the front spring mounts from Speedway Motors, the kind that mounts to a 3"tube. Then I just sliced the curved part of at a right angle so it could be welded to the side of a frame rail. Then you just need the spring shackle mounts and the spring shackles.
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Old 02-01-2008, 09:31 PM   #51
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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evil1 is working on a 30 Durant that used the Posie's set-up. It may help with ideas:

Great looking setup.
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Old 02-01-2008, 10:07 PM   #52
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

doesn't seem to be any shackles on the posie truck. I'm not saying there shouldn't be. I like my own design just fine but always looking new and better ways to build it
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Old 02-01-2008, 10:34 PM   #53
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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doesn't seem to be any shackles on the posie truck. I'm not saying there shouldn't be. I like my own design just fine but always looking new and better ways to build it
http://www.hotrodhotline.com/feature...untitled15.php
Here are some better pics...Notice the angle the upper bar mounts to the axle...hmmmm.
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Old 02-01-2008, 11:07 PM   #54
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end


J J, I don' have any pics of the '27 handy. But, I liked the set up so well that I build this shackless rear suspension for my International last winter. Drove it all summer.
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Old 02-01-2008, 11:40 PM   #55
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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http://www.hotrodhotline.com/feature...untitled15.php
Here are some better pics...Notice the angle the upper bar mounts to the axle...hmmmm.
yeah, I see what you mean. Maybe its just for show and not a driver. I've never seen that shot before. damn nice truck though
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Old 02-01-2008, 11:47 PM   #56
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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yeah, I see what you mean. Maybe its just for show and not a driver. I've never seen that shot before. damn nice truck though
It reminds me of a triangulated four link on a rear axle. Looks like it would work.
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Old 02-02-2008, 07:57 PM   #57
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end


Side view of quarter elliptic without shackle.
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Old 02-02-2008, 07:58 PM   #58
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end


See the parallel bar underneath.
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Old 02-02-2008, 08:01 PM   #59
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end


A poor pic of the mount to the axle. Over 10,000 miles of trouble free, no bump steer driving.
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Old 02-02-2008, 08:23 PM   #60
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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Originally Posted by jj mack View Post
I buy that....

I think Turbo26T's pic is the correct way to do it...If he plans to use the the lower bar also.

I dont think that using a spring to replace a bar of a 4 link set up is a good thing.
jjmack: That pic was made when I was in the mock-up stage and had a temp. link in place...heres a shot made a little further along in the build
Stan
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Old 02-02-2008, 08:38 PM   #61
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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Originally Posted by bobw View Post
A poor pic of the mount to the axle. Over 10,000 miles of trouble free, no bump steer driving.
I like the "flat" springs and understand how that works like a four link. It is the high arched spring that I think are prone to problems. Thanks for posting.
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Old 02-02-2008, 08:39 PM   #62
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

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Originally Posted by Turbo26T View Post
jjmack: That pic was made when I was in the mock-up stage and had a temp. link in place...heres a shot made a little further along in the build
Stan
Thanks Stan. Cool shocks too!!! You make em?
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:37 PM   #63
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

JJmack: yes I did ....but,the whole frt end,susp.,H/light & shock mount design was ripped off from a picture of the car Zipper built for Brian Brennan...I had to fab it myself ,since poverty seems to have latched onto my wallet and won't go away.!!!
Stan
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:14 PM   #64
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

It looks to me that the spring to axle brackets have a slot that the bolt through spring eye can slide in. That lets the spring end move relative to the axle during deflection of the spring with out changing the axle position fore and aft.
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Old 06-26-2010, 10:40 AM   #65
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Default Re: quarter elliptic spring front end

Been thinking about a quarter eliptic sprung project and always into more ideas....
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