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Zinc ad. and Conventional Oil

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by bigalow1, Dec 22, 2010.

  1. bobscogin
    Joined: Feb 8, 2007
    Posts: 1,688

    bobscogin
    Member

    According to the Mobil 1 website, that's not true. See this link:
    http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/Myths.aspx They list 17 models of cars that come off the assembly line with synthetic oil.

    Bob
     
  2. Gman0046
    Joined: Jul 24, 2005
    Posts: 6,108

    Gman0046
    Member

    bigalow1, ZDDP is not listed on the container. Some web articles I've read list the amount of ZDDP in various engine oils by brand and viscosity. Mobil 1, 15W-50 is the only Mobil synthetic with a high level of ZDDP. Not sure about other synthetic brands like Castrol , Pennzoil and such.
     
  3. Landseer
    Joined: Aug 19, 2006
    Posts: 154

    Landseer
    Member
    from VA

    True on Mobil 15W40.
    Retains high levels of ZDDP specifically for use in earlier flat-tappet engines.
    Costs something like $30 for a 5 quart container at Walmart.

    Mobil may also make a 20W50 or similar grade targeted for motorcycles that also retains the additive. Check their site for the chart that details the application recommendations and additives.
     
  4. I used a couple products from Hy-per Lube last week when I changed the oil in my '54 Chevy 235 along with some straight 30wt for the cold weather. (I normally use 20w-50 Brad Penn (the green oil) from thehotrodcompany.com which is awesome. Free shipping with your HAMB Alliance)

    Not Zinc, but a replacement for it.
    [​IMG]

    I usually use Lucas Oil Stabilizer, this looked similar so I thought I'd try it.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2010
  5. lostforawhile
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,160

    lostforawhile
    Member

    it may be that they have designed some of the new engines to break in with synthetic, but most older engines need a little friction to seat the rings and other parts, the article specifically mentions NEW cars don't need a break in with conventional oil, world of difference in the new high tech engines
     
  6. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,563

    zman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Garner, NC


    Bingo, the biggest difference is in ring technology.
     
  7. bobscogin
    Joined: Feb 8, 2007
    Posts: 1,688

    bobscogin
    Member

    So, an older engine rebuilt with rings using current technology can be broken in on synthetic?

    Bob
     
  8. safari-wagon
    Joined: Jan 12, 2008
    Posts: 1,457

    safari-wagon
    Member

    Based on the data that I've gotten, the levels of zinc in almost every brand of oil has dropped below the minimum requirements for a flat tappet engine.

    I've been running Amsoil PCO semi-synthetic blend in my rods & the high levels of zinc in it seem to work well in the old motors. The price is less painful than a full synthetic.

    Here's an excerpt from an Amsoil Dealer publication that we have on our site:



    I have seen this discussion in MANY printed publications over the last year or so. The problem is that the EPA & the cheapskates in Big Oil have stripped out the zinc in almost all of the over-the-counter motor oils. It was the zinc & phosphorous addatives that lubed & protected the camshafts & lifters on our old motors. If it's not in the oil, then you can quickly wipe out the cam in a vintage mill.

    The info contained below is a little deep for many of us, but you NEED to know the perils of these new oils.


    This is a Tech Bulletin from the folks at
    AMSOIL INC.,
    AMSOIL Bldg., Superior, WI 54880 (715) 392-7101 © Copyright 2008
    OBJECTIVE:

    Provide facts outlining lubrication requirements of flat tappet
    camshaft engines and the importance of higher levels of zinc
    and phosphorus.
    ISSUES:

    Flat tappet camshafts undergo extreme pressure and loads,
    thus requiring an engine oil that is fortified with anti-wear
    additives to provide premium protection. The severity of
    higher spring pressure in racing engines also creates the need
    for additional wear protection.
    To preserve catalytic converter life, phosphorus levels in
    motor oil have been reduced. Concerns have risen that oils
    containing lower levels of zinc/phosphorus could provide
    insufficient protection in high-pressure areas of flat tappets
    and camshaft lobes found in many older and high performance
    engines.
    TECHNICAL DISCUSSION:

    The most commonly used anti-wear additive in motor oils is
    zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP). ZDDP contains both
    zinc and phosphorus components working together to provide
    anti-wear protection, and is most important during cam
    “break-in” procedures. Proper break-in lubes should be used
    during the break-in phase for all new or rebuilt engines with
    flat tappets. These lubricants provide the extra protection
    required to reduce wear at the point of contact during break-in
    and help the flat tappet face properly mate with the cam lobe.
    Once the break-in phase is completed, AMSOIL motor oils,
    which are formulated with high levels of zinc and phosphorus,
    will provide premium protection to flat tappet cams.
    The American Petroleum Institute (API) and International
    Lubricants Standards Approval Committee (ILSAC) have
    mandated the reduction of phosphorus to extend catalytic converter
    life. However, reducing the level of ZDDP can compromise
    protection to engine components, most notably in flat
    tappet camshafts. Current API SM and ILSAC GF-4 specifications
    for gasoline engines have maximum and minimum
    phosphorus levels of 800 ppm and 600 ppm, respectively, for
    SAE 0W-20, SAE 5W-20, SAE 0W-30, SAE 5W-30 and SAE
    10W-30 motor oils. All other gasoline SAE grades do not
    have a mandated phosphorus limit.
    All engines, especially high-performance modified engines,
    benefit from oils with superior film strength and anti-wear
    properties. The flat tappet/camshaft lobe interface is the one
    area in an engine that has extreme contact load. Since this load
    increases significantly when non-stock, high-pressure valve
    springs are employed, the use of properly formulated motor
    oils is extremely important to reduce wear and extend flat tappet/
    camshaft life.
    RECOMMENDATION:

    AMSOIL recommends motor oils containing high levels of
    zinc/phosphorus for superior protection. Many of the
    AMSOIL synthetic motor oils are formulated
    with high levels of anti-wear additives.
     
  9. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,563

    zman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Garner, NC

    That seems to be the biggest issue with break in with synthetic in my experience. Though it hard to find modern ring technology for a lot of older engines, it takes an updated piston as well for them to fit correctly, ring grooves and all that.
     
  10. sdluck
    Joined: Sep 19, 2006
    Posts: 2,376

    sdluck
    Member

    Warren Johnson of pro stock fame,had a story in national Dragster,many years ago that he builds and breaks in all his motors on syn oil.
     
  11. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,509

    dirty old man
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'm an independent Amsoil dealer and have read everything Amsoil has published, printed or online, about their oils, and it's a helluva lot, I'll assure you! Amsoil doesn't recommend the use of their synthetics for break-in of newly rebuilt engines, and I'm assuming it's got to do with ring seating.
    The 355cid sbc with a solid lifter flat tappet cam setup I've built for my current project will be fired off and run for cam break in and ring seating with Joe Gibbs Racing Break In Oil, which has a high ZDDP content. Then I'll change to Amsoil's "Premium Protection" synthetic, which is available in 10W-40 and 20W-50. My engine is built with street use clearances and I'll be using the 10W-40. This is the oil Amsoil designed and formulated for flat tappet high performance engines with increased valve spring pressure, and it has an optimum level of ZDDP for engines without a catalytic converter.
    Too much ZDDP, even in a non cat engine can cause trouble with detonation and preignition, as the deposits left in the combustion chamber can contain metallic deposits, called metallic ash. This ash can act as a sort of glow plug, causing detonation and preignition and all the bad results that accompany them. That's why you need to use some restraint about "If 1 can is good, 2 will be better" with additives.
    Diesel oils are changing now that cats are being used OEM on many diesels. Many makers are reducing ZDDP in their oils intended for diesels.
    Amsoil has introduced a new oil strictly for the requirements of the new, '07 and newer diesels, and continued ther original additive level in the oils for '06 and earlier.
    Sorry for the novel, but this is an important and complex issue.
    Dave
     
  12. Chevy55
    Joined: Nov 6, 2008
    Posts: 406

    Chevy55
    Member
    from Nebraska

    No worries on a 90 lincoln, 302 roller cam motor. Run any kind of oil you want.
     
  13. bigalow1
    Joined: Feb 17, 2008
    Posts: 105

    bigalow1
    Member
    from 496 C.I.

    How much better off would my modern roller tappet engine be if I used an oil with a higher Zinc content???? Granted I do not have mech tappets in my newer cars but I still have piston rings, cam, and crank bearings. There is of list of things that might still benifit from the zinc?
    The oil manufactures have replaced Zinc with a comparable more echo friendly component but what is it???
    Now, I know Big Brother is looking out for us by "protecting the enviroment" with stricter emmision mandates, and our goverment does a wonderfull selfliss job when they our looking out for our best interests!!! My tanked 401k reflects our goverments dilegence.
    Maybe we are getting to many miles out of our cars and the lobbyists are saying "wait a minute" we need to cut back on the efficiency of our engine lubricating products in the name of "polution control" ???
    Is this whole ZDDP reduction Bu#@Sh&t ????
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2010
  14. Gman0046
    Joined: Jul 24, 2005
    Posts: 6,108

    Gman0046
    Member

    Don't think for one minute the ZDDP issue is Bull Shat. I've read of cam wipe outs because of it. I wouldn't chance not using break in oil on a flat tappet cam. If your valve train is roller disregard.
     
  15. bigalow1
    Joined: Feb 17, 2008
    Posts: 105

    bigalow1
    Member
    from 496 C.I.

    The black helicopters have gone!

    What I meant is I should add a little ZDDP to my Synthetics for my newer" go to work" cars. They say you do not need Zinc with newer engines buit why not?
    Does the ZDDP react with the catylitic converter and plug it prematuarly?
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2010
  16. Gman0046
    Joined: Jul 24, 2005
    Posts: 6,108

    Gman0046
    Member

    You only need zinc in engines with flat tappet cams. New engines have roller drive trains and you don't need ZDDP's. Zinc supposedly not good for cat back systems.
     
  17. lostforawhile
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,160

    lostforawhile
    Member

    thanks for the heads up, I'll try to join the alliance when I'm able good reason to support the site and free shipping
     
  18. bigalow1
    Joined: Feb 17, 2008
    Posts: 105

    bigalow1
    Member
    from 496 C.I.

    I understand GMAN.
    Several hours ago I filled an industrial gear box up with pennzoil 10w-30 convential Then I connected a single phase 1.5 hp electric motor and monitored the peak starting current, running current, and recorded my data.
    Then I drained the gear box and installed Castrol Synthetic of the same weight repeated the procedure, and recorded the data.
    Results:
    The Synthetic reqiured 12% less starting current and 9% less running current
     
  19. lostforawhile
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,160

    lostforawhile
    Member

    no point in worrying about if synthetic will break in an old engine, just run conventional oil with the proper zinc phosphorus, or a break in oil, break it in and switch to synthetic, with the additive if needed if you want to run synthetic, how often do you break in a new engine?
     
  20. Butch11443
    Joined: Mar 26, 2003
    Posts: 353

    Butch11443
    Member

    New engines with the right materials & clearances break in fine on synthetic. My 07 T&C came with syn in it from the factory. So do Vetts & Cads. I always check the oil for the CI-4 designation for zinc content. Been running 15-40 Rotella in the flathead w/ good results.
    Butch
     
  21. lostforawhile
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,160

    lostforawhile
    Member

    maby a bit off topic but on topic with the thread, overhead cam engines with non roller rockers running off of the cam also need the additive, there's a lot of friction between the pad on the rocker and the cam lobe, most older engines with this design were designed with the additive in mind.
     
  22. moefuzz
    Joined: Jul 16, 2005
    Posts: 4,950

    moefuzz
    Member

    What about Delo?

    Has it been "updated"??

    Anybody?

    I have more than a few Running Flatheads here and use Delo or Rotella.

    Was under the impression that Delo was still good oil.


    .
     
  23. no55mad
    Joined: Dec 15, 2006
    Posts: 1,845

    no55mad
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from nipomo, ca

    Spend some time and read the info on www.zddplus.com Diesel oils are not formulated for gasoline engines. Believe it or not, the site answers lots of questions. Buy off the shelf modern oil (as they suggest) and add zddplus, a product sold here by an Alliance Vendor.

     
  24. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,563

    zman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Garner, NC

    What's the rating on it? CI-4 CJ-4 that'll make the difference right there.
     
  25. Tommy's Cycle
    Joined: Mar 22, 2006
    Posts: 767

    Tommy's Cycle
    Member
    from So Cal

    AP Fischer
     

    Attached Files:

  26. 1hot57
    Joined: Dec 18, 2008
    Posts: 102

    1hot57
    Member

    Bigalow1 The rings that you refured to as chrome molly are ether chrome OR molly 2 difference ring sets. If you use Sealed Power rings they are pre seated out of the box.
     
  27. Automotive Stud
    Joined: Sep 26, 2004
    Posts: 3,995

    Automotive Stud
    Member

    In my old cars that still have flat tappet cams I run Valvoline or Castrol with ZDDPlus added into the oil every oil change. On my cars with fresh engines and roller cams I run the same thing for the first 5k (I figure the extra zinc can't hurt for break in), then Mobil 1 synthetic.

    Works for me... but asking a car guy about his oil choice is like asking if he likes blondes or brunettes...
     
  28. hellbilly1932
    Joined: Feb 15, 2007
    Posts: 74

    hellbilly1932
    Member
    from San Diego

    Just reading on the Castrol site trying to find the specs on the GTX oil I have used forever in my classics (right now my '59 F100 and my 74 CB750) and came across the Castrol Syntech 20W-50 which they claim is formulated for classic cars and has the proper ZDDP levels. Any one know if thats true or just a marketing claim?
     
  29. Gman0046
    Joined: Jul 24, 2005
    Posts: 6,108

    Gman0046
    Member

    I'm using Brad Penn 10W-30. $4.99 a quart. If Cam manufacturers recommend it, thats good enough for me.
     
  30. This may sound like a stupid question.Will a ride on lawn mower hold up with out zddp?
     

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