Who else still hammer welds?

On a lot of the older expensive cars, 12 gauge was not uncommon on some fenders. I worked on many of them. Do your research before being RUDE.

" Real hot rods don't have fenders "

 

Yea.... I'm gonna have to call BS on that too... I've worked on plenty of "older expensive cars" and NEVER seen a 12 ga fender! Cripes it would weigh 500 lbs!

 

Sorry to hear this thread has gone so far off track. It's supposed to be about hammer welding, not about the gauge thickness of fenders. Let's see if we can stay on track and bring it back to subject matter without running each other down on who's the smartest. Hopefully, someone will do more research on this the fN fender thing.

 

I'd like to hear more about welding non stop and stretching after. I weld with O/A and use rod. I have a low crowned door skin out in the shop 43" right across the center of the door. I wouldn't mind trying something new. It's an easy skin to make if I fuck it up!
I've always hammered my welds and corrected the panel as I progressed. Basically was taught not to let it get too far ahead of me. Much like tinguy, but I usually file the weld before hammering.

Here's a fender I did 7 or 8 years ago. It came out fine , but required a lot of correction and file work to make it acceptable. Please feel free to pick it apart! The cars long gone and I bought my ZO6 with the profit from that job, so you can't hurt my feeling! (I'm a man, I only have one!)

But seriously, I'd like to learn to do this better and faster.

 

I wouldn't raise a right hand to say you coulda welded that fender completely 1st. You had 2 different directions, 2 different shrinking dynamics. I might have done the top 1st, then re-shape the repair and run the vertical afterward. Maybe you did too? Can't really tell. In the end, it looks like it was ready for primer w/out frosting it like a cake. That means a perfect repair no matter how it was done.

A quick edit regarding old car fender thickness. The thickest cars I recall were actually Pierce Arrow cast aluminum. Yes, you read it right CAST aluminum. I don't refer to metal by gauge thickness. Personal peave I guess. I've seen fenders up to .060 thick in places. That's probably not 12 gauge if wire and sheet metal are gauged similar. I have 12 gauge wires running things in my shop. Still, when you consider the average 40s-70s car with a .040 +- sheet metal thickness, then a fender like a Packard, then something off of a late 80s to current, it makes you scratch your head regarding this whole topic. Tig welding the average 60s fender is a challenge. Patience rules. Tiging old trucks and cars, go for it. Body panels, even on the biggest of the early cars, can present an issue now and then as well as they seem to be drawn thinner in spots, and perhaps started with less gauge thickness for that purpose. I can't tell ya, I wasn't there, but I've done more than a dozen 30s Packards. Big surpise, right?

 

You mean like this?

 

I've done some minimal and cursory research in hopes of finding a 12 gauge fender.
How about you point some out since you have had them in your hand.

. I don't refer to metal by gauge thickness. Personal peave I guess.

Just a little side bar note on that - gauge reference is to the number of passes thru the rolling dies a sheet had to make to get to that thickness. 10 gauge is 10 passes, 20 is 20 passes that's why bigger number is thinner.

 

31 vicky, I didn't know that. I'll live a day longer. In case that sounds shitty, dear ol Dad used to say every time you learn something new you live a day longer. If that were true, this fuckin place could create immortals!!

 

I'm relatively new towelding as I've only done a limited amount in the last few years. I'm really impressed with Fusion welding, Tig is like jewelry when done right, Mig is for the average guy, and old time Arcor stick welding is for farm equipment and heavy duty stuff like bridges. However, teaching history, learning from my uncle, and asking welding instructors I still think of "hammer welding" as the original welding style developed hundreds of years before any gasses were involved. It was the heating of two pieces of metal and then hammering them to fuse them. Think of the process of creating a sword where metal is fused, sometimes stretched and folded over on itself. The current usage of the term "hammer welding" is more properly understood as gas welding with some metal finishing/shaping thrown in to counteract the effects of heat. Picky? Yeah but correct. LOL

 

Or this....

After reading this thread, I believe "hammer welding" is going to die a slow undignified death.
Hammer welding or as the "Brits" call it, forge welding is the process of hitting or striking a red hot or near red hot weld (most of the reason you only get about an inch along). The reason this is done is to control the amount of (inevitable) gathering or shrinking of the weld area. At this point it is possible to further shrink or stretch... to "place" the material where you want.
The smaller amount of heat created by the T.I.G. process make it nearly impossible to accomplish this, M.I.G is out of the question as it "piles" filler to the seam, and also creates a brittle (hardened) weld area, making it unsuitable...T.I.G. to a lesser degree. The O/A system tends to anneal making it the choice process.
Welding seams with no filler is what you want to attain. Only where you need an absolute metal finish should rod be added, and that only after you have "hammer welded" your work together. I.M.H.O.

 

Just an example of added filler rod....

 

That's the key principal, annealing of the metal during the welding process.
The OA process just lends itself to that perfectly.

 

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I AGREE - but on {old tin only} you can use new tin, on old cars.

" NEW CAR -NOT ON HIGH STRENGTH STEEL."

" Real hot rods don't have fenders "

 

I don't think it's going to die just yet. I'd bet there are far more of us out there that you'd think. This board, and others like it are breathing new life into old arts. Although not technically in our curriculum at school I teach it as a base skill. Not all of them keep at it, but at least 25% of my students ask for additional time to develop the skills. We find the time

Nice work Marshall!
"Welding seams with no filler is what you want to attain. Only where you need an absolute metal finish should rod be added, and that only after you have "hammer welded" your work together. I.M.H.O."
This is what I'm after. I'd love to see some in progress of this "variation" of the process.

Either way thanks guys, your giving me the confidence to try something new on the bird I'm on right now.

 

M.M.Shaping,you say it's almost impossible with TIG because it creates less heat,can't you control how much heat your putting into the weld by going slower and adjusting your gas,the TIG gun IMO is not as awkward to use in my hands,that's all !

Gaz !

 

Tig welding has a more focused heat and arc area, the heat zone is narrow. There really isn't any secondary heat from flame spread.

OA has a small weld zone but the flame is spread out so fat and far from the joint much more area gets heated.

 

The subject of "old metal" and "new metal" is all about metalurgy more that date of manufacture. 18 gauge draw quality aluminum quenched steel that is avaiable today is not a lot different that the 18 gauge steel used on Fords back in the day. The new stuff is likely even a little easier to work with than the old stuff is. There are more than a few gauges and they are just standards that regions develope to further describe materials required in manufacturing. The US Standard Gauge is the most common for steel sheet in this country but there are other gauges used for different materials like aluminum, stainless and various wire sizes. They are pretty specific to within a few thousandths of an inch or less in some cases.

This is just yet another thing a good metal man has to be aware of in order to match materials up properly during welded repairs. Trying to weld a piece of 18 gauge to a piece of 19 gauge can be done but it's a lot easier and better results can be expected when the two pieces are matched up more closely in thinckness and composition. It's a real chore to try and weld a piece of galvanized road sign to a floor in an old round fendered car

 

It's not about controlling the amount of heat...you actually need the heat.
With the T.I.G. the weld area is "cold" by the time you are ready to manipulate the joint with the hammer.

 

It has nothing to do with the age of the material, it's all about carbon content or the alloy. Early Fords used "draw quality" steel with a low carbon content.
Early GM products used a relatively high carbon content not unlike today's cars. Welding up the Chevy stuff is a P.I.T.A. Just make sure you use the correct material.
Rotorwrench summed it up....and yeah don't you just love that zinc smoldering off that old sign??

 

Hello Tinbender

I meant "death" by definition...it's good to see some guys are trying to learn. A better joint is just the beginning of the advantages of O/A and the forge welding process!

 

__________________________

YEP -I AGREE and that is what I did for 40 + years!!!!

" Real hot rods don't have fenders "

 

"Embrace the heat grasshoppa"

 

I see you use the Henrob,do you use it with all your O/A sheet metal work,thanks, Gaz!

 

Are you pricks gonna force me to go fill my empty bottles? WTF...

MMS, those are some beautiful fits on that fender. I do have a question though. What made you decide that odd shape, the sharp-edged section, that was worked into that fender? Ok, one more, those spots in that tail section. I'm guessing those were "shrinks" to pull in the rear skirted area. Many fenders of that era look that way from their original draw, and once finished actually magnify the images you see once dark and shiney. Thanks in advance...

 

Absolutely, wouldn't use anything else! I love the control you have with that style of torch.

 

Highlander....(are ya a wee bit scot?)

No particular reason, I am a little nuts for wanting to retain as much original material as possible. It may have been that the blank I used to fab the repair panel was only that big??
The shrinking was to blend the repair to the existing shape. Rarely when you shape a repair panel for something like a fender is the contour 100%.
That is truly one of the beautiful attributes of hammer welding...you manipulate as you install!

 

If you have a moment can you describe the process your using?