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What the hell is this and how do I use it?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 31Vicky with a hemi, Aug 20, 2013.

  1. Man, that ancient Swedish wiring stumped my electrical genius and his mentor.
    There's no info on the cover.

    Really there's so very little about this machine anywhere on the net. It's basically just like a pulmax and some say (very few that do say anything) its a better machine. I can't even turn it on yet!!!
     
  2. oldgoaly
    Joined: Oct 22, 2004
    Posts: 562

    oldgoaly
    Member

    That sucks! I know a guy who says he has 2 or 3 of them in Tx Mike Haligan. I had his email but lost it in a computer crash (computer shop screwed it up) wish I knew more about them, I know a little about Pullmax and SMV niblers, but they are Swedish, yours is Swiss. Also know a guy in Maryland who put one in service last year his username is Flattracker94. You might check for his thread on metalmeet. http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8341 He might have Mike's email or phone number. Good luck!
     
  3. Well had another electrician out.
    At least this guy new quite a bit about motors. Seems this is a dual wound delta motor thats also dual voltage capable like most. There's 18 wires in the motor, 9 for regular speed 1700 plus Rpms, and 9 for 1/2 speed 800 plus Rpms.

    He got it running but only for a few seconds at a time. After about 15-20 seconds the motor got so hot you could not touch it, after 30 seconds it started smoking. ( oh no the magic smoke :( ) So a few more rounds with a multi meter and a few different wiring tries the same results.

    His recommendation is to take the motor to a shop and gave them figure out why it gets so hot and probably will need a rebuild. He's more than reasonably certain it was wired correctly.

    Bachofen machine 6 electricians 0 . Fuck me running!!!
     
  4. Russco
    Joined: Nov 27, 2005
    Posts: 4,194

    Russco
    Member
    from Central IL

    Did you try Stan Yet?
     
  5. Not yet, actually forgot about contacting Stan. Every time this thing costs me money I get pissed and ignore it.
    Thanks for the reminder :)

    Here's his info and this is on my list for today.

    Stan Fulton
    1763 Ashland Road
    Ashland IL. 62612

    Fulton Metal Works
    (217)-476 8223

    sfulton@casscomm.com
    __________________
     
  6. Russco
    Joined: Nov 27, 2005
    Posts: 4,194

    Russco
    Member
    from Central IL

    I'm betting he will have some answers for you. He buys,refurbishes and sells Pull max machines and makes tooling and dies for them too.
     
  7. oldgoaly
    Joined: Oct 22, 2004
    Posts: 562

    oldgoaly
    Member

    p13a15.jpg
    Well the pic of a Swedish Elmo motor terminal isn't going to help, all the wires you have are below this. Check a new metric motor out, This one is for a P13 the only difference between the older Elmo and new metric for 1.5hp is the shaft size, it's bigger on the new motors. That's a easy fix by boring the motor coupling to the new size. Look for a surplus motor, not list price! single speed and use a VFD. Unless you have a good old mom and pop motor shop, it is can be expensive!
     
  8. Dawai
    Joined: Oct 1, 2007
    Posts: 263

    Dawai
    Member
    from North Ga.

    It is a Multi-voltage-tap two winding motor. Each winding has a different number of magnetic poles causing different RPM's from 60hz electrical line.

    Need more information on the motor taps. A good motor shop can give you a diagram of "how it should connect for your 3 phase voltage". Take the motor off, take it to them to test, diagnose the connections for you.

    What kind of 3 phase power source do you have?

    I made the last one (on a 2 speed 3 phase dye mixer) run with two contactors interlocking, you do not want power on both sets of motor windings at once. It would overheat. You can do this with auxiliary-coil contacts or a mechanical bar like in a forward-reversing starter. WHEN one side is on, the other should not be allowed to be powered.

    You may email me, and or call me if I can help, my wife is off on vacation and I am bored to death. Helping you might make me feel better about the sad shape of this world. (one happy person in it for a moment)

    I would love to have that machine, my stuff is home-made.
     
  9. Dawai
    Joined: Oct 1, 2007
    Posts: 263

    Dawai
    Member
    from North Ga.

    (What can it do??) Rapidly put a profile into metal, decorative beads, body lines, shape, shrinking (Thickening, pulling it in to curl or remove ripples) , stretching (Thinning, pushing it out to for bulges or curves) Smoothing, planishing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2CdusMRvkA My home made version uses a "jeep spring", home made frame, sewing machine motor. A one ton monster.

    Cab corner home made tooling on home made machine.
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1471627&d=1320000369

    You can make anything from sheet metal if you are stubborn enough. At one time I tossed motorcycle metal-failures into the woods behind my shop, my buddies pulled them out, bondo'ed the heck out of them and ran them. Eventually the failures are less often.. thou.. I still have my moments. (going the wrong way)

    My machine is so loud it distresses the neighbors. Needs it's own sound proof room. I had six rolls of insulation gave to me recently.
     
  10. 1932tub
    Joined: May 31, 2005
    Posts: 405

    1932tub
    Member

    Hi from New Zealand

    I have a Nibbler machine which is similar to yours, mine is rated to 3mm
    ( 1/8th ) I would say looking at yours it would do 1/4" without any trouble.
    Mine also came with what looked like a variable speed switch on it.
    A local motor guy looked at it but he said that a 3 phase motor like that was impossible to speed regulate but it has graduations on the machine for different
    speeds. I think he just could'nt get his head around it. Your explanations on the switch make a lot more sense. If possible get the variable speed working properly, it would be a huge advantage. Mine just runs flat out which is fine for
    shearing but a slower speed would be good. Good luck I will keep watching.
     
  11. oldgoaly
    Joined: Oct 22, 2004
    Posts: 562

    oldgoaly
    Member

    What David said about two separate winding and using different number of poles 4 poles 1725 rpm and 6 1100 rpm are common. Why 31Vicky's terminals are so "exposed" leads me to some one needing clues was into it before he got it!
    The Swiss are known to be rather meticulous in neatness! Even the Elmo looks better. Various electricians out there, instrumentation, high-line, household wiring. A guy with a wiggy isn't gonna help!
    here is a pic of what the winding will look like on the inside, dual-voltage 2-speed Elmo Pullmax motor circa 1980
    p13a16.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 21, 2014
  12. Well I spoke with Stan and he's not familiar with this machine at all.

    Spoke with 2 motor shops who when I mentioned a "dual voltage, dual wound delta motor" had no clue about what I was speaking of.

    The third motor shop knew all about them and said it will cost me 40.00 to have it checked and pinned for my 208 3 phase. Much more though if its in need of repair. So ill take it in on Tuesday. That motor looks damn heavy too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2014
  13. Russco
    Joined: Nov 27, 2005
    Posts: 4,194

    Russco
    Member
    from Central IL

    Sorry for the goose chase. I would have thought the European 3 phase wiring would be similar or the same as the Pullmax is.
     
  14. No goose chase there. We had a nice conversation about this stuff and future need for tooling. He also reaffirmed the idea of taking the motor to a shop and have checked out.

    The wiring may indeed be the same but who knows ? Someone who is familiar with both machines probably. The one motor shop knew quite a bit about the concept, but never heard or saw a "landert moteren" nameplate.
    There is so very little information available about this machine.
     
  15. Dawai
    Joined: Oct 1, 2007
    Posts: 263

    Dawai
    Member
    from North Ga.

    1) Is there a KW rating, or a horsepower?

    2) If you Power only one set of windings on the motor does it overheat?

    3) Controls to turn it on? what is there? a drum switch? a contactor (3-4 pole relay) panel?

    4) while you have the motor off? turn over the machine to make sure it is not binding up, that will make one overheat also. HOW much force should it take, well it should be pretty easily turned over, not sure how the insides is made, scotch yoke or throw rod. TT would know more.

    5) have you searched for data on the machine online?

    Normally in factory configuration, the studs there have copper links that go between them making connections. (low voltage, high voltage) IN AMERICAN motors we use scotchloks to twist the motor leads together. American electricians normally out of ignorance discard the copper links.

    Sounds like you are becoming a expert on "expert electricians".
    A 15 minute job, after a eight hour drive.

    $40 is cheap for a motor shop in business to make money. Sounds like you found a fix. You will still have to power it when you get back home with the labeled motor.. post pictures of how you turn it on...
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2014
  16. oldgoaly
    Joined: Oct 22, 2004
    Posts: 562

    oldgoaly
    Member

    b-m1.jpg

    b-m2.jpg

    b-m3.jpg

    Once you get the motor sorted, grease everything! they more like a smaller Trumpf than a Pullmax. Spin the mechanism in the head by hand, should be some resistance but still spin easily. Direction? swapping any two of the 3 phase lead in will reverse motor. but I don't know if B&M have a directions. The two guys I posted in earlier in the thread have running B&M's. I would try to touch base with them. They know more about them than all the people on here, I've swapped a bunch of email and pm's with them, but I haven't seen one in person. As they have described it more like a smaller/older Trumpf not the 701 or 901 big nibblers. Just be careful starting it up cause there are no spare parts! I know a guy who fired up a T5 Pullmax and broke the rod.... lucky he could machine a new one still cost him more than the machine! he traded for the machine. Good luck with it! your gonna love it!
     
  17. 1932tub
    Joined: May 31, 2005
    Posts: 405

    1932tub
    Member

    So could this motor be controlled by 2 different on/off switches?
    ie one to run the slow speed and one for the fast.
     
  18. Engine man
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,480

    Engine man
    Member
    from Wisconsin

  19. 48FordFanatic
    Joined: Feb 26, 2011
    Posts: 1,335

    48FordFanatic
    Member
    from Maine

    Whatever it is it must work well...looks like its powered by a SBC.:D
     
  20. Dual speed polyphase motors have never been common and generally had rather elaborate controls before modern electronics came into use, and it sounds like yours may be missing. I've got a pretty decent reference library and was unable to find little more than mentions that they do exist in them...

    Best bet? If the high speed windings are good, use those and install a modern freq drive to change speeds.
     
  21. Am I the only one who gets fucked like that. The weirdest shit in the universe will find me.

    So the center off drum switch supplies one side or the other. Even so Each was systematically eliminated by physically disconnecting and results were the same.
     
  22. Lol, thats just a 307, they don't run for shit. Everyone knows that. :)
     
  23. oldgoaly
    Joined: Oct 22, 2004
    Posts: 562

    oldgoaly
    Member

    bbc and 4 speed hydro... P9 with autoshift 4 relays, 4 speeds, more headaches.... know of a guy in Florida and one in Washington state have them using 4 speeds. Cary explained it to me.... gave me a headache! These were bought by the navy for their on ship fab shops.

    p9autoshift01.jpg

    this is pick of a more modern version, older one were real funky looking.
     
  24. You're not alone, I have that same problem...
     
  25. Dawai
    Joined: Oct 1, 2007
    Posts: 263

    Dawai
    Member
    from North Ga.

    Adapting another motor is not a big thing. If you get stuck.
    A single phase motor will be "HUGE" in comparison. A dc motor is smooth, drives can be expensive, but simple.

    "Strange crap always ends up here on my place", I thought "POOKAS" as in "Harvey the white rabbit". They love to hang around eccentric people. That might fit most us Hambers.. There was a woodpecker here I thought was possessed by the devil. Look around my shop, strange tools. Odd pets? One of a kind cars and trucks.

    OUR NON-HAMB commuter car was attacked by a hawk in the drive, now.. Match that. (video on youtube) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjusvSJa0Pw
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2014
  26. oldgoaly
    Joined: Oct 22, 2004
    Posts: 562

    oldgoaly
    Member

    Found Mike's number, completely forgot he move back to Iowa, if you google Hallico Grand Junction, Iowa he should pop up with shop number, no website yet, he didn't update his spot on the MSA forum.
     
  27. Well if all goes right, ill get the motor back on Tuesday.

    2 motors wound in one case
    With the jumpers On the drum switch.
     

    Attached Files:

  28. Finally finally finally I've got this thing running. It was no easy feat let me tell you.

    It runs sooooooo whisper quiet. That is until you start moving metal around with it. My welder is actually much louder than machine is this just running. Unbelievably smooth.

    I've got a set of doming dies, 2 sizes of Louver dies, a deep single off set, a small bead set & box of used up nibbler punches. A bunch of elaborate and extremely heavy guides too.
     
  29. I had one of those plates (1st Picture) on the firewall of my (O.T.) Yugo...:p
     
  30. oldgoaly
    Joined: Oct 22, 2004
    Posts: 562

    oldgoaly
    Member

    make your self some shrinking dies, not hard to do, just remember to leave the gap more than the thickness of the metal "after " it thickens while shrinking! Years ago there was some bad info on shrinking in a Pullmax, some even said it can't be done bulls**t! If you have a pneumatic plannishing hammer adapt you dies to the B&M, you have the best electric plannisher in the area!
     

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