try using some "low alloy" wire. they call it "eze-grind" and it is same tensile as standard mig wire. costs more but any metal guys i know swear by it.
To anneal steel it has to be heated to cherry red, I never anneal steel and I seldom anneal aluminium either, The aluminium for the tank that Jesse James made did not need annealing there is not much shaping in that tank and it would be easy to put that amount of shape in without annealing it but that is off subject. Gas welding is the method that was used in the old days and I don't think it can be improved on for butt welding sections together. Mig and tig have their uses but gas welding is by far the quickest, least distorting and easiest to metal finish if it is done properly. Every visible part of the '33 Ford body below was hand made by me, the rear quarter was made from six sections GAS WELDED together. The rear wings are made from four sections GAS WELDED together, door skins from two sections welded just above the bead with GAS. I have mig and tig welding in my workshop but I weld all panels like these with gas - its the only way!.
That's a pretty wide sweeping comment. What if that hunk of sheet he had was in full hard condition? What if all he had was a piece of heat treated sheet? What if that was a piece of 6061 or some other alloy that work hardens very quickly? I could go on and on. There are very few things in life you can apply such a wide brush to. Your way works to your satisfaction, bully for you. That doesn't mean that everyone else doing it slightly differently is automatically wrong. You don't by chance post over on AllMetalShaping, do you, 'cause your style looks awful familiar.
I just finished building these light fixtures for a man cave with a 12 ft sealing being built in Spain. They will reflect light down on 12 very high dollar cars in a private collection. There hand formed 19 gage steel made of 3 piece's each & tig welded together. They are 30 inches long 14 inches across at the widest & 7 inches high at the highest. I have Davids DVD it has lots of good info& he is a master at the craft, but on the welding I am just able to do a better job with the tig. I use my torch mostly for lead work now. The pattern I was given to use for a reference was made of 9 pieces & was a disaster.
Fair comment, but why would you use a heat treated material to make a petrol tank and then remove the heat treatment by annealing it? why would you use an alloy that is going to work harden very quickly? especially if you have the resources that Jessie James has and can afford the correct material? and anyway the small amount of shape in that tank could be formed in all but the hardest materials without annealing it. I could go on but this thread is about welding sheet steel for panels. My statement about gas welding being 'the only way' if you read it was a bit tongue in cheek, rather than a statement of fact, it would be a bit of a stupid statement to make if I were making it as a statement of fact and I thought that it was obvious the it was a jibe- Oh well Yes I do post on allmetalshaping under my real name. Carbuilder, Your parts turned out well they look very nice. You know that I say that it is a matter of personal preference between gas and tig for welding steel on the DVD for me gas is quicker because with the method I use there is no grinding, little distortion and I find it less cumbersome in the workshop situation If the parts are going to be chrome plated the choice is even narrower because filler rod is needed and the time factor is less different. For welding alluminium I would say that gas welding is far better that tig and mig because finishing the weld is a lot easier. I an having to put some wings (fenders) right that were made by someone else and these were tig welded which is making the job twice as hard.
the word to best describe the work is different from each pair of eyes.keeping the art of gas welding alive seems to be harder than fabbing or repairing panels on vintage tin.
can anyone advise who sells this trouble is im in the UK , although i do visit socal from time to time, could i pick some up anywhere, do they sell the smaller reels
The method of gas welding I use is the method that was used by the coachbuilders of old. Tig welding is fine on steel panels but one drawback is that it is a lot slower than the gas welding method that I use which involves no clamps, no filler rod and no grinding. It is possible to do the same thing with a tig which is the method that Contour Autocraft teach on their courses, the problem I see with this is the weld can be weak due I believe to hydrogen embrittlement. (I am not 100% sure of my facts on this but It is the same reason that you cannot use gas welding rod for tig.). If you weld with filler rod with gas or tig the whole process slows down and more distortion is caused, there is weld build to grind off putting more heat into the panel causing more distortion. I have to work to a commercial speed and a big part of this is being able to weld quickly and finish the panel quickly. Tig is too slow for me and grinding all the welds is not something that is productive. I am not saying it is not a good method I juast prefer gas, gas is also the traditional method and I work on vintage cars a lot so it 'feels' right to use the same methods as were used when the car was first built.
Hi Ryan, Attached is a picture of a piece of 20 gage cold rolled that I shaped for a fender flare. I ended up throwing it on the scrap pile, and later grabbed it and made it into a fan shroud cap for an aircooled engine. As you can see it has a tremendous amount of compound shape. No annealing or heat of any kind was used to make the part. I have never had trouble shaping cold rolled steel into virtually any shape I want shaping the metal cold. There are times when heating and beating are faster, but I don't think it has anything to do with the more technical annealing process. Annealing is a term I don't use much in relation to cold rolled steel because I have heard it said that true annealing of steel must be done in a more controlled environment than most of us can muster. Not sure if this is true or not, and can't remember who said it, just that I respected their opinion. I know that you can relax sheet steel with low temperature heating (no color change) and cooling with a torch or shrinking disc, but I'm not sure that this is technically annealing. Anyone know different for sure, or is the term annealing a little over-used in relation to steel? John www.ghiaspecialties.com
Mig with flux core soft steel is what i use. You start out at one weld every 4 inches and just keep going back to where you started to where you stopped and one weld at a time till your weld is complete. The reason for this is heat, you have to give the weld and metal a chance to cool. To much heat and your metal will roll up. Hope this helps.
Let me help out a little bit... "To anneal steel it has to be heated to cherry red" Actually to anneal steel it needs to be heated to about 600-700 degrees. Takes on a Brown color. "The aluminium for the tank that Jesse James made did not need annealing there is not much shaping in that tank and it would be easy to put that amount of shape in without annealing it but that is off subject." That Tank was .080 3003 with a 24" Radius in the whole top of the panel. It could have been done with a powerhammer and No annealing, but that would have drasticly changed the overall thickness of the material. It would have also work hardened the hell out of it, and run the risk of stress cracking. At that time I did not own a powerhammer. Just a Mallet, Shot Bag, and an English wheel. "Gas welding is the method that was used in the old days and I don't think it can be improved on for butt welding sections together. Mig and tig have their uses but gas welding is by far the quickest, least distorting and easiest to metal finish if it is done properly." Gas Welding is great for keeping the weld and panel "soft" and workable, But you run a higher risk of warping. This is because gas welding has a much larger Heat Effected zone than a TIG weld. For steel I only TIG For Aluminum I either Gas Weld or TIG weld. It all depends on what tools you have and what you are comfortable with. *Note* One of the biggest rules of thumb for welding sheetmetal. Make sure your gaps and tacked together tight! If you cut corners and get lazy with your gaps. You will pay for it later when metal finishing your work. Happy Thanksgiving....
Goddamn, Jesse, that "Keihle's" was a shame to paint over it!!!! The paint actually takes away from the shape you developed......besides hiding that gorgeous metalwork!
Super nice work by David (mindover) and Jesse! I love Johnny's fender too. Different strokes for different folks. I am with David on the gas welding. My favorite method by a long way. I don't worry about the heat affected zone or warping the metal. It is all part of life's rich pageant : ) John www.ghiaspecialties.com
You can do it! just takes practice, and you have to realize that every time you fuck something up? You learn a lesson on how to do it right next time... I could fill a shipping container with all the tanks I've screwed up..... I am always learning.......
I definetly agree. I have screwed up alot of stuff just to get where i am now.no where close to you but i never give up and keep pushing foward. Happy thanksgiving.
I like your bikes Jessie but for some reason the post you did came out too big to show up properly on my screen. Jessie, You should have no problem shaping 3003 ally without annealing it, I have put a lot more shape than you were creating in that tank in 16g steel with nothing more than a hammer. We may be talking about two separate things, in the footage I saw in youtube you definitely had a power hammer and a wheeling machine but you formed the tank with a plastic mallet. Those plastic mallets are too light to form anything with. I use a bossing mallet that weighs about half a pound. For steel I use blocking hammers and hollowing hammers if I am doing it by hand, some of these are pretty heavy but they move metal fast. In regard to the gas v tig thing, Gas will cause no more distortion than tig if done in the traditional way, did you look at the photos I posted? The cause of distortion is not so much the amount of heat that is put in a panel as how even or uneven that heating is. When a piece of steel is heated it expands and when it cools it shrinks beyond its original state, therefore if a welded joint is heated more in one place than another it will have shrunk more in one place than another causing distortion in the panel. Its good to see that we agree about gas welding aluminium at least, not that I would get into a fight with you anyway Just to give you some idea of where I am coming from I have been doing 'metalshaping' here in England for more than 30 years and I have taught it at college on and off for about twenty years. I make my living from this stuff and have built just about anything you can think of in my little workshop. Below are a couple of photos, the first is of a body that I reproduce from photos for a 1912 Sunbeam , this car won the 1912 French Grand Prix. The second photo is of a body I created for a 1932 Riley special. Both are in bare aluminium. Johnny I must apologise for hijacking your thread I am very sorry! John Kelly, I think although you and I have had our (somtimes heated) discussions about metalwork we don't really do things so differently!
One good point was your gaps have to be perfect.I could not agree more,it is a art form in its self. It does not matter how you weld it,understanding what the metal is doing is what is important. When welding you are shrinking the panel,knowing that if you re-stretch it you will be better off.Do it as you go or in the end does not matter. Mig,tig,gas who cares use what you got.If you have all of them,you pick. This has been a good thread. Happy Thanksgiving everyone
Any tips on how to gas weld aluminum, tip size,flame adjustment? I assume the same filler weld as tig is used?
The tip size depends on the material you are welding, I use a number five tip for 16g and a number three tip for 18g (maybe a number 2) you need a slightly carburizing fllame and if you are welding body panels the best filler rod is a strip cut from the sheet of material you are welding. Hope this helps
You need aluminium welding flux but it will depend on where you are in the world what flux is available. in good old blighty we have Sif whaich can be obtained from most welding supplies places. I have used Anti Borax flux from the states and it was pretty much the same. It might take some surching but I am sure you will find some no matter where in the world you are.
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