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History Watermarks... An Opinion Post...

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Ryan, Nov 7, 2016.

  1. Ryan
    Joined: Jan 2, 1995
    Posts: 19,514

    Ryan
    ADMINISTRATOR
    from Austin, TX
    Staff Member

    On Facebook this weekend? Not as far as I know. I didn't see it though.

    I have seen people take images I "own" and post then on Instagram with a watermark. When that happens, I don't even address it... cuz, really - what's the point?
     
  2. What's a Watermark??
    Really, I have never watermarked my images, but so far only one of the, has been 'stolen' and used. Yes I sorta make money with my Bonneville images, and which is why I share few images. If I was Peter Vincent or a Mike Harrington whose living is their photography, the shared would have a watermark.
    My worry is what happens to my images when I am gone? At that point I would want them saved as history, and we know the 'value' of history. History is for everyone, to remember and learn.
     
    HEMI32 likes this.
  3. alright sounds good. i was just trying to figure out what started all of this. i guess i never put to much thought into photographs being "property". except the really expensive ones that i commission from a pro.
     
  4. jcmarz
    Joined: Jan 10, 2010
    Posts: 4,636

    jcmarz
    Member
    from Chino, Ca

    Kudos to you Private Ryan. You hit the nail, square on the head. Only very few photographs are actually money. For example, the tintype of Billy the Kid is worth millions and copies of that image is everywhere, but yet those images are worthless because they are not the real thing. In short, the value, historical and/or monetary, is always with the original, not the copy.
     
  5. Bam.inc
    Joined: Jun 25, 2012
    Posts: 657

    Bam.inc
    Member
    from Salina, KS

    I understand & agree with professional photographers watermarking their work they share online. I hope they do it so subtly we don't notice, but if they have ownership & someone rips it off for their own personal use, original photographer should be given credit.
    But if you did Not watermark it, or claim exclusive rights to it... I guess most anything you choose to post on public forums & social media, could be expected to end up anywhere at anytime?
    I love quality photography, but Digital media really took what we used to do & transformed the photo hobby or profession.
    I don't think most people that copy, cut, paste images in social media even give it a "thought" that it could be stealing or plagiarism. ... mostly sharing photos for fun & enjoyment of others.
     
    autobilly and oldsjoe like this.
  6. I think that's the answer. So, the only reason to get out of shape over it is if you feel your ego is bruised because someone else is claiming your work. I'm into genealogy and after many years of publishing data on my website, I now find that if I do a search on an individual, I find my stuff on half a dozen other sites. I really don't care.
     
  7. Ryan
    Joined: Jan 2, 1995
    Posts: 19,514

    Ryan
    ADMINISTRATOR
    from Austin, TX
    Staff Member

    Yeah, my complaint is not relevant to modern photography or working photographers at all. If you take photos for a living or even if you are just really proud of your personal shots, I'm all for you having ownership and protection from theft.
     
    ct1932ford and oldsjoe like this.
  8. texdesoto
    Joined: Sep 20, 2006
    Posts: 134

    texdesoto
    Member

    Really hate the watermarks on ebay nude pictures.
     
    lewk, Chrisbcritter, 29bowtie and 2 others like this.
  9. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 14,565

    DDDenny
    Member
    from oregon

    This ego thing........is a powerful thing, but can also be quite debilitating.
    Guess what, the day you die, it all really won't matter!
     
  10. We used to call this, Theft of your intellectual property.
    Artists all know of this, and the parasites who rip off your intellectual property.

    Now days, with millions of images on the interwebs, it's not worth the grief of getting upset over it.
    If you create any type of image, and don't want it copied, the only real way to protect it, is to hide it away.
    As to watermarks, I've always laughed at the waste of effort the owner went to, because if someone wants that image, a good Photoshop person would make it go away, without to much fuss.

    I understand both sides of this minor issue, and I think Ryan pretty much nailed it, in his first post.

    @Ryan sounds like another fb drama. A bit of publicity for the Hamb perhaps, with everyone talking about your Image.
     
    tb33anda3rd and Jeff Norwell like this.
  11. oldpl8s
    Joined: Apr 11, 2007
    Posts: 1,399

    oldpl8s
    Member

    I'm glad the internet has allowed photos to be shared and more importantly preserved rather than a single owner have his kids toss them in the trash when he dies. I'm happy to share my old family photos and hope people will keep copies so they don't cease to exist. Often the original subject is not what becomes valuable decades later when eagle eyes researchers find something in the background they never know existed. My friends in the Austin Bantam club saw an old Buster Keaton film where an Austin roadster gets hit by a train. In one of the frames they could see a bezel around the interior door handle they didn't know about before.
     
    Bam.inc and MUNDSTER like this.
  12. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,812

    The37Kid
    Member

    One of the main reasons I signed on to the HAMB was to share the photos and literature in my four draw file cabinet. Before the HAMB five, maybe six guys got to see some of the stuff. Posting a photo of an unknown race car and having someone ID it and the driver is a big deal to me. Having more info added, and more photos to share in the cars history is why the photos were taken in the first place. Thanks Ryan, it is very easy to post photos on the HAMB and keep history alive. Bob
     
    ChuckleHead_Al and Bam.inc like this.
  13. chevy57dude
    Joined: Dec 10, 2007
    Posts: 6,100

    chevy57dude
    Member

    Watermarks suck.
    I hate looking at 'em.
     
  14. 34FordConv
    Joined: Oct 31, 2007
    Posts: 185

    34FordConv
    Member

    Ryan ... You are a stand-up guy with a stand-up attitude.
    I 100% agree with what you are saying.
    Thanks
     
    rpm56 likes this.
  15. I agree with Ryan's post and as many know I use to share all my pics without my logo/watermark. Unfortunately some early Bonneville images I shared online were downloaded and the person made prints and was trying to sell them on ebay :mad::mad: as vintage photos. The way I saw it I had two options 1) stop sharing what I purchase, which defeated the purpose of buying the photos in the first place. or 2) watermark

    I still feel a little dirty watermarking vintage photos but after getting burnt, fuck it, I still want to share my finds. I have continued to purchase images, though I haven't been sharing as much these days. I post on Instagram and I always tag the #hamb so the images are visible on my HAMB profile page.
     
    HEMI32, ChuckleHead_Al, hrm2k and 2 others like this.
  16. oldsjoe
    Joined: May 2, 2011
    Posts: 2,531

    oldsjoe
    Member

    I am going to chime in on this. I have a big collection of photographs I have collected from the internet. If I do repost these images they are as I copied them. Now that being said, if I post photographs that I have personally taken anywhere on the internet I have a watermark on them. Why? I know you are asking. A few years ago I posted pictures from a car event on another now defunct car web site. A cyber buddy was there and I had taken and posted a few pictures of his very nice car. He contacted me and thanked me for showing off his ride. Well low and behold a few months later on that same site his car shows up with a nude young lady draped across the hood! Him being a very religious man was very hurt that I had done that to his car. Thing is it wasn't me at all, another member had photoshoped said nude young lady onto the photograph I had taken! So I felt bad for the guy and was not very happy that someone would do that to a photograph I had taken. I talked to a few PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHERS and asked what I could do to prevent this type hacking from happening. All the professionals I talked to told me they will not post any photographs anywhere on the internet without a watermark. Although I am a hack of a photographer never claim to be a professional I do watermark any photograph that I personally have taken and post anywhere on the internet. Just to discourage such things as that from happening to me again. That's my nickel's worth on the subject of watermarks. Joe
     
    lothiandon1940 and Jalopy Joker like this.
  17. flatford8
    Joined: Dec 12, 2012
    Posts: 137

    flatford8
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Lyman,ME.

    Interesting thread. Learning something about a topic I never thought much about. Thank You...... Mark
     
    lothiandon1940 likes this.
  18. In Pat Ganahl's Lost Hot Rods II there is a piece on the Dick King roadster (pg 76 for those playing at home) the vintage image comes from my collection, I was stoked to see it included. I had sent a Hi-res copy to someone who was close to Barry Williams. They had few era photos so I was happy to send them scans of the roadster.

    If I have a vintage photo of an old hot rod that someone owns I am happy to give them scans.
     
  19. Hyfire
    Joined: Jun 18, 2004
    Posts: 1,232

    Hyfire
    Member

    Not all watermarks are about ownership. I've started two good sized threads posting "lost" photos that I found through archives, private albums, photograph collections and individuals. I made sure I watermarked everything. I don't care who copies or gets credit for them. BUT... I watermark a website so that when the photo is re-posted somewhere and someone wants to learn more about it (or has more history on it) they can at least find a way to contact me.

    This thread has interesting timing because I was thinking the other day that I should post an archive on my server of the original scans so that the cars and the history get out there and are used.
     
    Jimmy B likes this.
  20. How hard is it to remove a watermark from a picture? Seems to me if someone wants to do unethical shit with your pictures it's going to be pretty hard to stop them with technology as readily available to everyone these days. I mean their are programs on the net to remove watermarks.
     
  21. autobilly
    Joined: May 23, 2007
    Posts: 3,094

    autobilly
    Member

    What I'm getting here, is that as usual it's the dickheads that fuck it up for everyone.
     
  22. Too many rules!:confused: You put it out there you should expect anything.o_O
    This PC world is driving us old bastards crazy.:oops: I am going back in the garage.:cool:
    Oh, and thanks to all that post photos. :D I do post photos all the time and know how much you guys like them!:cool:
    If you are doing it for a living then you set the rules or watermarks:rolleyes:
     
  23. At the end of the day if someone wants to remove a watermark they will, it is more a deterrent.
     
  24. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 28,398

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'd say that this is a pretty gray area where the use or reuse of the photo or permission to do so depends on if the user is paid in some respect for having the photo shown. Saving on the computer and showing it on Facebook as a Look what I found while searching the net or with the proverbial "Is this the ___________ car out of the _________shop? Is one thing. Saving it and then printing out paper copies that you try to sell on Ebay or some other sales venue is an entirely different thing as then they are avoiding paying you for the photo.

    We have two if not more professional photographer who are kind enough to post photos here for us to see and enjoy and both will be more than happy to sell you a copy of their photos. Dan has his watermarked when he posts and I have bought at least one print from him that is first rate all around and I need to get it framed. To copy and use either of their work is obviously copyright infringement.

    I don't get too worried if someone wants to share one of my photos but will be glad to have a print made if someone wants a print of a certain photo and is willing to pay for printing and mailing. My Sunset, landscape and seascape shots are a different story though as I do intend to sell prints of those when I get time to work with them.

    I'd still like to know what the uproar over that photo was all about though, that has to be a story in it's self.
     
  25. oldsjoe
    Joined: May 2, 2011
    Posts: 2,531

    oldsjoe
    Member

    Just as a lock on a garage door keeps the honest folks honest. A watermark on a photo may deter some but not all!
    I understand that. Just trying to make it a little harder on my photographs. Joe
     
    Jalopy Joker likes this.
  26. "See, I believe (with some exceptions) that only one person can claim ownership of a photograph and that’s the guy that literally made the image. You know, the guy that chose the aperture, chose the shutter speed, and pressed the release… And in my opinion, if that guy didn’t watermark the photograph, it’s in bad taste for someone else, years down the road, to do so."

    To the above agreed indeed, and I would include digital images, and digital images enhanced or modified, photoshopped etc by the guy that literally took the image. Sharing an image should be flattering to the original photographer or artist.

    I can see why some photographers might want to watermark their photographs. Certainly if its there livelihood. It's no different than signing a piece of artwork. I do think people should be able to "share" a watermarked photograph if its in the public domain and in good taste. Ultimately the photographer/artist should be able to make the call if they want something pulled down for whatever reason.

    Now if someone is trying to "use" a photo in a illicit manner, passing it off as there own, or using it for advertising purposes, reproducing, printing t-shirts etc. that would be stealing somebodies shit.
     
  27. Fuck this shit. my head hurts. Let's build some hot rods!
     
    rpm56, cully33, 270dodge and 9 others like this.
  28. Torana68
    Joined: Jan 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,239

    Torana68
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Australia

    wouldn't life be easier if people just showed others a bit of courtesy? if you "borrow" a photo , credit the place (or person) you found it. I do a lot of photography (motorsport) and its published so I'd be mightily pissed if someone claimed it as theirs or didn't give me the courtesy of crediting me. I also "own" older but non HAMB friendly motorsport negatives, my intent will be to either sell the lot to someone who will publish/sell or donate to a museum Id like them to be available for anyone to see..............If I post one of my photos to share publically it has a number of hidden watermarks that don't spoil the image unless you blow it up :) if its not "mine" I give credit.
     
  29. 48-760
    Joined: Dec 15, 2009
    Posts: 139

    48-760
    Member
    from OH

    I have posted MANY photos on fordbarn.com. I do it because a picture is worth a thousand words and for education. Many of the photos I post are mine and some are off the auction site of, parts for sale. I don't look for credit when my photos are re-posted, but find it annoying when the credit is given to the wrong person. I get over it, or contact the poster and politely correct their credit.
    A close friend took several photos many years ago, of early local racing and interesting auto related scenes. A couple of his photos have had his name removed from the caption he placed on the bottom of the photo and have been reprinted for sale. I can understand his anger that someone would remove his credit and make money off his work! By the way he often reprints his racing photos and gives the reprints away to the racer as a remembrance without charge.
    Just a couple of different views.
     
  30. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,812

    The37Kid
    Member

    If all goes well I'll be buying a parking lot photo taken around 1910 later this month. Something I've wanted since the day I first saw it, high quality with about 200 cars to ID. Pretend it was a photo taken at Harper Dry Lake in the late 1930's,with every car there in it, that should give you an idea of how special it is to me. Should I protect my investment and watermark it? Bob
     

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