Wanting to start an automotive class- give advice

Ok fellow HAMBers,

I am a teacher in Georgia and my county has done away with vocational degrees. All students are now expected to go a college route. I am trying to convince the board that we need to keep and infact, expand out automotive program in the county. It can teach all the physics in the world, chemistry, earth sciences, etc. I am going to incorperate CAD programming in it and I have my own milling equipment. What I need is some public opinion about why it is important to keep and expand these programs.

I love cars- always have- and I want to pass the joy down by teaching them classic and modern automobilia.

And if you have some good input or are a professional in the field i may be using this in my arguements.

Thanks everyone!!

 

I have been a college professor for fifteen years and I can attest to the fact that every single high school student should NOT go to college. Some students simply do not have the right set of innate abilities to get a college degree, just as some individuals simply do not have the right set of innate abilities to be a great artist or mechanic.

I believe it is important to keep and expand the sort of programs you are talking about because they provide an avenue to a good, productive, and useful job that is currently closed off to anyone (like my brother) who can not or will not complete a college degree.

When my father was a young man he could walk into any number of factories and get a stable and good-paying jobs. By the time I was a young man that was no longer true. If your high school can provide the kind of training and education that will allow students to step into a career then by all means you should do whatever it takes to make that happen. I believe the current times actually make such programs MORE vital than they were in the past.

You might want to check out "Shop Class as Soulcraft" by Mathew Crawford. He makes some excellent arguments in the first chapter or two about why skilled trades are an excellent career choice in this day and age, and therefore instruction in those trades are equally important.

 

I'm a chassis fabrication instructor for Wyotech here in PA. I taught high school auto and machine shop for 8 years prior to that. In my experience with public schools, there is no motivation to keep vocational ed. programs because of the amount of dollars per head it costs the school district.

Your best approach IMHO, is to show how your program reinforces the core curriculum in the school. Demonstrate how your curriculum teaches students basic math and word skills in different ways. Include relevant history and environmental awareness topics. Show the school board that you are reaching that student population that struggles in traditional core classes. If your state has a basic graduation requirement test, show how your class helps prepare students to pass the exam.

We were fighting for our lives out in CA, and it was a losing battle because of the budget required to keep the programs open. If you get agreement from the board, DO NOT let yourself fall into the trap of taking on the program without the budget to back it up. School boards are famously willing to agree to a lot of things that don't cost them anything. It will kill you trying to make everything happen and teach without any money to work with. If they truly see value in what you are doing, they should be willing to back it with a real budget. If not, I would walk away....

Just my $.02....

 

One more thought: don't assume (like I did) that any student who takes your program won't ALSO go on to college.
I took shop class all through junior high and high school and then went straight into college. And I have used the knowledge and skills I learned in those classes countless times in countless ways since then. In fact, the valedictorian at my high school took metal shop class, too. SHE went on to medical school after getting her B.A. in two years. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

This is great guys- I do want honest opinions- I need to know if I am fighing and uphill battle (but I am young and stupid and I want to fight).

Ex and atom- you both make great points.

Atom- this is one of my arguements too is that not all are desined for college- this college only move is going to equal higher drop out rates later (but they will only show higher college acceptance rates per grad)

and Ex- I know exactly what you mean about the empty promices.

What I want to do is not just make it a "shop" class- but one that brings in automotive engineering.

Imagine if I had a class of future engineers design a concept and then I had the vocational calss build the car- it would be like a real world buisness.

Though I am sooo broke, baby on the way, scrounging to get by, I am willing to put my own tools and cars toward the program to prove it can work.

 

and the SHE thing- I really want to recruit females into the program. The always have had that mentality of "its a boys world" but they can do it as well or better.

Thats is something else i want to sell the county on.

 

I have no experience dealing with a public school board but it sounds like an uphill battle.
I can tell you that we get people into college who have no business being here AND we get people with plenty of smarts who for various other reasons drop out. Life just gets in their way. If they had marketable skills they'd be able to do fine.
And again I'd emphasize that what you are proposing would not preclude students from going on to college. They would just have a choice.
Good luck!

 

Best of luck.

I noticed years ago that ATL area tech schools teaching welding, auto tech courses, paint and body, in short just about anything that wasn't computer- or business management - related was either already gone or on it's way out.

Just a thought but it may be the ATL job market driving that trend. Here in Huntsville there are still several schools teaching those tech courses I wanted to take years ago.

If your plan doesn't work out, start talking to people in the Huntsville school system. Might be time to relocate.

 

Automotive shouldnt be considered vocational it should be considered a life skill, along with english and math because if you cant maintain a car how the fuck are you going to go anywhere?? by Bus?? This is part of why the country is going to crap everyone just thinks the 2nd biggest investment in your life, your car, is a disposable appliance just like a washing machine

Good luck

 

And because schools are run by stupid soccer moms that have no grip on reality

 

It teaches you physics. Ever try to explain anything about performance (compression ratios, gearing, bearings, heads, blowers, nitro, carbs, exhaust, etc, etc) without talking about physics? It doesnt really work.

Also ask them who they think will fix their cars in the future when all us high school guys go to college and dont become mechanics.

 

I think that your stated objective is destined to failure, in a public funded setting. Middle and High School isn't the place to teach hands-on-anything. Even sports, are there to feed the ego of parents and faculty when all of that time should be expended in academics. Most of the leadership in education think the kids are there for their personal entertainment and people skills challenges. Those that spout support for vocational settings do it for the wrong reasons, certainly not for the well-being of any student.

If you really want to, think you can, make a difference in the automotive world set your sights on being a mentor for a few kids, possibly as many as a dozen in your lifetime, by buying a shop and taking in those that have dropped out through boredome but demonstrate some mechanical aptitude. Set your own standards, develop aptitude evaluations to root out those that offer some promise, kids with mechanicls aptitude, that have had it rough, gone hungry, did without the finer things, with a simple goal in life to have self respect and the desire to work hard for what they want.

 

...gotta agree with atomic and 29nash. Two different views and both firmly planted in reality.
What many of the 'great thinkers' on the school boards fail to see is that kids are as varied as adults; different needs, different desires, different goals. Bankers (usually) don't know or care how to fix a faucet or change a tire. Masons, steamfitters, carpenters, and mechanics can not only make things function they are often gifted with strong math backgrounds even if it occurs in the Community College. They will also help the banker stay open for business.


.

 

In California high schools the automotive classes died because as electives, quite a few students were in the classes because "it was easy and you could goof off" there. It seemed to get worse over the years to the point where they were eliminated. I graduated High school in 1966 and our automotive class was very good and to pass the class with a good grade meant something. I always kept in close contact with several local programs over the years as a professional at the dealer level. In spite of my efforts and the manufacturer I represented, the programs declined in effectiveness and soon started to disappear.

Now....after leaving the auto industry I find myself teaching Automotive Technology (Hybrid Tech & Alternate Fuels) at a Regional Occupational Center. I find that these students are there because they WANT to be in the class, they want to get as much information and gain as much skill as possible in order to better themselves. The enrollment has a waiting list for prospective students....this tells me that the demand is REAL and there really is a need for this sort of thing.

 

I taught high school vocational auto mechanics for 13 years 1978/1981 and saw the program go from being over filled with kids because the school district was getting quite a bit in vocational funding for each student in the class to having to scrape by because the kids would rather take weight lifting class or got pulled out and stuck in English second language classes because of their last name.

The students who want to take mechanics now have to travel 20 miles to the regional skill center.


A few questions,
Can you write a complete plan for the classes for a full school year right now?

That is, a solid 180 day plan that shows what you would be teaching at what time and what the expectations are for each section.

Also can you show how each section of the curriculum flows into the next?

I'm as fed up with this nonsense that "everyone has to go to College or they are a nobody". Way of thinking of school administrators and school board members that I could scream but it seems to be a nationwide thing and until they wake up and figure out that there is a whole segment of students that they are loosing or passing by because of that attitude we will still loose the battle.

True a lot of these modern "disposable" cars aren't really designed to be repaired for the long term but someone still has to have the skills to diagnose and repair them while they are under warranty. Most of the systems on modern cars weren't even in use when I left teaching in 1991. It now takes the ability to comprehend what you are reading, and then put that to work when checking out the systems on the modern cars.

Lastly, can you show that you can send your students out to be successful in the field when they complete the course? Either by going on to more training or going to work and making a real wage or better.









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since the auto industry is at the lowest level it has ever been , I steer kids in a different direction , like plumbing , meat cutting or health care fields ...... there has never been a worse time in the auto repair business
this was an awesome business in 1984 , money oozing everywhere
but new car leasing , customers unwilling to spend money to fix anything -has killed everyone's attitude , the heart breaking tragedy of flat rate piece work with overpoipulated shops and a lack of customers
I wish teachers would spend extra time trying to reach the easily bored , they may be surprised to meet some of the smartest people around
being a mechanic for 26 years means trying to talk my kid out of anything in the car business , and I kind of agree with dropping vo ed programs in the schools

 

most vo ed programs never take the time to explain flat rate
but those 20 hour checks for working 50 hours on the clock speak volumes on why this industry has had it
it's criminal I tell ya
everytime I see WYOLINCOLNUTITECH ads on tv , with the promise of 100k annual 'salaries' - I want to drink some 75w90 and end it all

 

This is all great stuff guys- I really do appreciate the positive and the negative- I do need people to keep this idea grounded because if it were just up to me of course I'd throw everything I have at this because it is my thing.

The good news is- I do have some clout in the county and the higher ups do listen because the programs I have been working to expand have worked and they have made them look good (a little back scratching)
AND in the county we are still clinging to a thread of hope because 2 of the 20 high schools in the county still have an automotive class.

What I am trying to do is expand the program to incorperate more of the engineering behind it so we can service students from special education ALL the way up to the person who wants to take on Harvard or Yale.

Think of it as a modernization of an old concept for the 21st century. And i think we are going to need more mechanics out there because instead of buying new- many people are holding on to cars and fixing them since they cant afford a payment.

I do have the classes for 4 different levels roughly mapped out. I got an appointment with the two remaining shop teachers in the county to see how they run the program and to talk about budget issues. I also have a meeting with the principals of those schools to see the administrative aspect. I am working my way upo and I will keep you guys informed.

I appreciate everyones opinions and keep them coming- good or bad.

 

Are there any community colleges in your county? If so, do they have any of these kinds of classes? Perhaps you could work out some sort of agreement whereby your high school students take some classes with you and some from the community college instructors? That way high school students are getting "college credits" and everyone comes out looking good.

In Missouri they're sending community college instructors into high schools starting next year so it's not a new idea - only in your case the classes would be focused on this one specific goal.

 

Being an auto tech for almost 30yrs I agree 100% with all spiderville says.I also steer any young person away from this field.Most tech schools a few years back still were graduating students with point and condensor knowledge only for ignition systems and would be lost once out in the field.The knowledge and thought process needed to repair cars today exceeds many college grads abilities.Look around when passing by auto repair shops,they are getting $100+ hourly rate and this trade is still without air conditioned workplaces many shops I worked in still had no heating systems . .The upfront out lay for thousands of dollars in tools (at techs expense)poor working coditions,training,years of hands on experience,the pay just isnt in sinc.I am all for anyone learning all they can,but keep auto repairs a hobby not career .

 

I do have a few community college schools around that I can call on for help. I do have alot of contacts at Georgia Tech in the Mechanical Engineering department and they are the ones who run the Georgia Tech car club. Maybe my route should focus on mechanical engineering and I put my emphasis towards cars. I would not need as much space as a full blown shop but i could still use cars to teach all the concepts. I can still have students working on cars and learning life skill but i can put that college spin on it hard core if I focus it around engineering.

What are the thoughts on that?

 

the Polecat: Sounds like you have the networking skills and contacts but the bottom line is budget and the social stigma that vocational classes are for dumb kids. Also, vocational ed programs at the high school level are too costly, become dumping grounds for non -academic and "problem" students, don't bring academic recognition to the school or the Principal and are usually woefully under funded. At the high school level vocational programs (and teachers) are the first to be "cut" when money is tight. This is also true when scheduling. College bound kids get scheduled first to make sure they get their advanced classes and then vocational students get what "the master schedule" will allow.
Principals are very reluctant to spend $$ on vocational programs because they bring no academic glory to the Principal or the school. And above all, a high school must strive for a high academic standing. How many students go on to college is much more prestigious than how many graduates pursue a trade. Plus, you have to justify having a vocational program by showing there is a community need and keep statistics that prove graduates from your school's program are getting jobs in their field following graduation in order to justify the program's cost and existence. Without a proven need school districts are reluctant to set up any vocational program without the inclusion of industry for funding and equipment. In south FL automotive classes are taught at area vocational centers and high school students go there for 3 hours a day and still get credit towards high school graduation. GM, Ford, Toyota, etc. sets up the vocational center programs. I would suggest that you run for the school board and attain a position where you can make policy outside the classroom to make your dream come true. One last thought. Any program where YOU have to bring in and use your own tools and equipment shows that the program itself isn't worth funding adequately and is facing a down hill spiral. Don't even think about: "I am willing to put my own tools and cars toward the program to prove it can work." Been there. Done that.

 

fixed operations , the shop pays all of the overhead
we used to get 50%
now you are lucky if you get 30%
teach kids a trade that actually can support a family

 

19- thanks- I think you are right.

as for the board- I keep thinking that is a route I need to go

Spider- thanks too. I agree that just teaching a "shop class" isnt going to cut it.


Just some background to some:
i have managed to get a full STEM (science, technology, engineering,mathmatics) program going here at the middle school level- we have all sorts of stuff that many high schools and universities would live to have including 2 CNC routers- 3 different types of CAD programs (depending on what field of study you want) a full 20'x12' HO slot car track, a full on robotics program and my middle schoolers have beat out every high school in National competitions for F1 in Schools 3 years now.

This is why I want to move up and start something new- I feel this program is ready to rock and it is unstoppable now.
Now I want to take on a new challenge. I am going to take all the advice- especially about not making this a shop class due to the uphill battle i face. I am going to make it more of a mechanical engieering focus and get those "smart" kids in there but them sneak in a few of the "deviants" ( of which i was one till I found cars) and make them work side by side to solve advanced problems.

Thanks all.

 

Good idea about focusing on your endeavor as an Engineering class. You will find that at the high school level the physics and other science classes are already incorporating into their science classes the same things that you want to do-especially re: robotics and special engineering projects such as hybrid car design and construction, energy and wind power alternatives, etc. I suggest you team up with your high school's advanced science and college placement classes to formulate an integrated curriculum in which both your program goals and the school's academic goals can be achieved and recognized. Your program will be much more successful and sustainable if it is a tri-curricular- involving science, technology, math and the hands-on skills you have to offer. Be aware that this is very hard to do due to the budgeting and scheduling and those who resist change. Sounds to me that you should use your already "proven" STEM Program as the foundation for building a similiar (but with more advanced activities and projects) program at the high school level. If you describe it as a "vocational" or a "shop"class you are doomed.

 

In addition to the excellent ideas above, it's time for my "everything is political" speech. Again.

1. The board members are politicians -- they run for school board. Strike 1.
2. All instructors are swimming against the tide of dumbed-down schools and students. It's no secret that HS grads 50 years ago were a lot better educated than nowdays. All teachers get students who can't even read and write, yet huge resources are diverted to try to get them up to speed.
This is the result of political decisions. Strike 2.
3. Since most students are effectively pushed back a couple of years, the job of actual education falls to post-HS vocational schools, which is where the $$$ goes now, the result of political decisions. Strike 2.8

That said, it might help your cause to promote a course as "certification prep" -- preparation for ASE cert -- like so many HS courses are for "college prep".
The politicized bureautards might like that spin.

 

I hate the politics game- it is what really hold things like this back- it is because someone up high didnt have their name on the paper so they torpedo it- even if they know it can work.

And the ASE certification is what I'd like to have students who follow me for a four year program complete- even if they dont use it ( I know- gotta find the funding to pay for the tests)

Wish i could just quit it all- build a real shop next to the school and if the kids wanted to come over and work- theyd let them.

I love to teach and i love love cars. Everything would be great if people weren't involved.

 

Harry Bergeron's point 3 is right on the money. "Since most students are effectively pushed back a couple of years, the job of actual education falls to post-HS vocational schools, which is where the $$$ goes now, the result of political decisions. Strike 2.8". The Federal Gov't isn't giving out "humungous" amounts of money for vocational programs at the high school level as in years gone by (Perkins grants, etc.). I would suggest that you go downtown and talk with the powers that be to find out what the future holds for vocational ed. in your school or county and state. Go to state conventions and find out what future plans are already being prepared and find out where your ideas fit in. I am sure you are a great teacher who really cares but to be an "agent of change" you must get out of the classroom and be in a position where you can implement your agenda and still work within the parameters of "the system." All too often good teachers with good ideas are in reality powerless to effect change because they operate in their own little world in the classroom, unaware of impending changes that may actually include the demise of their program. Then one day the principal walks in and says; "We're closing this program."

 

One more thought. Get your Doctorate in Vocational Education so you can move up thru the ranks and become a recognized national leader in your field and stand a much better chance of making your dreams come true.

 

Good idea- I think I may jys take it to the top=======> Imagine... ThePolecat2012 for President.

Forget all other items- I want automotive classes at the high school level.

I guess i have to wait a bit though- I have a few years to 40.


On a positive note- I had my meeting with the man who diects the sutomotive program in the county ( not the person who runs the budgets though) and he informed me that the teacher at one of the schools is leaving and they were trying to figure out what to do with the space. I am about to email the principal over at the school and try to get a meeting... to him I will say- Imagine if you could have a pre engineering course and you didnt have to get rid of all the equipment and try and convert the space- it would save thousands and you would have yourself the beginings of an engineering program------ THERES YOUR HOOK! THERES MY IN!

I'll let you guys know how it goes!