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Technical Transverse front suspension travel

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Blue One, Dec 11, 2018.

  1. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,453

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    Now that my RPU is coming together I have decided that I really would like to ditch the electric fan and switch to a mechanical fan.

    The problem is the way I packaged my front suspension the only option I had was to run the tie rod behind the rad and above the frame.

    It works great but almost certainly requires the electric fan.

    I’ve been looking at it scratching my head trying to figure out if in fact there just might be room for the mechanical fan without having my tie rod hit it as the suspension works

    With that in mind, just how much upward movement can I expect when the front suspension is under full compression?

    4” dropped axle and posies spring.
    Is there a way I can measure it?

    My plan is to remove the electric fan and bolt on a mechanical fan and see what I might have to do if anything to get some room.

    I’ve considered things like dropping the tie rod in the middle or even orienting a drop back towards the front engine pulley to get some room to avoid the tie rod and fan from trying to occupy the same space at the same time :eek:

    I really don’t like the electric fan.
    The mechanical fan and maybe a shroud would be so much better.

    21335786-710C-4ECA-882B-8842CACD5C5D.jpeg 7FDE835D-EDBE-4A7F-B589-6EF6F200CAB4.jpeg AC5D2DC6-12E6-4F9E-B0E2-6F56C2E4C5EE.jpeg 5C521442-1504-4AA3-932A-876C472BC057.jpeg 37C8766B-02DF-4C61-99B1-1218AC90BB92.jpeg 6D13CD5B-ADDD-425B-9D48-77196FDB227A.jpeg
     
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  2. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 15,354

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Can't go low? Deep dropped arms, and maybe those dropped tie rod ends that Speedway sells? Gotta be better than a non-adjustable rod with a bend in it.
     
  3. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 10,021

    Atwater Mike
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    'going low' would be a long way down...below wishbone and frame levels.
    Alchemy mentioned the secondary concern: Non-adjustable.
     
  4. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 15,354

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    If you have to do a dipped rod, put adjustable sleeves on the ends ala 40 Ford drag link to do the adjusting. Not pretty, but would get the job done.
     
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  5. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,453

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    Yes, going down would be really down, and end up below the scrub line. I actually had the parts and set it up that way initially during mock up.
    That's why I ended up going behind the rad using the long suicide Superbell steering arms from Pete and Jakes.

    The adjustability factor isn't a huge issue, a little fiddling popping tie rod ends out and using the threads for adjustment without turning a bent tie rod wouldn't be that bad.

    What about the amount of suspension travel I can expect under full suspension compression ?

    Knowing that or being able to measure that will let me know what I have to work with.
     
  6. Suspension travel depends on spring rate. 1.5" down should be enough. If you have more add some spring. If the radius rods are below the frame rails I would have run the Tie Rod through them in an Oval opening. A little late now that everything is all Chromed Up.
    The Wizzard
     
    Hnstray, Tim and scrap metal 48 like this.
  7. you will probably get no more than a couple inches travel

    i will get flamed , but i have no problem with the electric fan..... your setup looks nice
     
    prewarcars4me, brEad and XxMikexX like this.
  8. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,453

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    That hydraulic line is supported perfectly fine, those are heavy duty hose ends crimped up by the local brake shop.
    Thy run them like that on millions of trailer brake systems all over the country with no issues, they are designed to be used that way.
     
    nugget32 likes this.
  9. Fine time for a redesign
     
  10. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,453

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    If you saw a side on shot you'd see that the radius rods ( wishbones ) I built are right beside my frame rails so going through anything was not an option.

    I initially thought the electric fan was ok when I built and installed it, but coming to wiring it the more I look at it the more it bugs me.
    A mechanical fan would be so much nicer and more dependable.

    If all I get is 1.5 to 2" of suspension movement at full down I may get away with it as it is now.

    I have to bolt on the Derale 13" fan I ordered and have a look.

    Any ideas how to fully compress the front to see what happens ? (Without messing up shiny stuff ? :D)
     
  11. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,453

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    Hey don't be mister negative :D Anything is possible at any time.

    It won't be the first time someone has done something like this, and sometimes it's much more involved than this relatively simple thing.

    You of all people should understand that :D
     
    JOYFLEA, brEad and pitman like this.
  12. lol yep!
    When I build one, they start with wheels tires and the fan. That sets everything else.

    I'll see if i can find a good pic for you of suspension travel.
     
    scrap metal 48 and Blue One like this.
  13. Not sure if this is a possibility or not but is there a pulley available that would push the mechanical fan forward enough that it sits in front of the tie rod similar to where the electric fan is?
     
    Just Gary likes this.
  14. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,453

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    That is a possibility using a fan spacer of the right thickness however when you turn the front wheels in either direction the tie rod naturally moves forward towards the rad in its arc of movement.

    Right now I have 1/4" of clearance between the back of the rad and the tie rod on each side at full lock.

    So, driving straight might be fine but turning a corner over a bump ?
     
  15. Happydaze
    Joined: Aug 21, 2009
    Posts: 928

    Happydaze
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Hard to tell but wouldn't you need a sizeable fan spacer to get the fan close to the rad? If so wouldn't it be ahead of the tie rod?

    Chris
     
  16. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,453

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    It is hard to tell from the pictures but no, the spacer wouldn't be long at all.
    There really is very little room to work with between the engine and rad.
    Once I remove the electric fan and position the mechanical fan I'll have a better idea, I really need to see how much my suspension will compress at full down that will really tell the story.
    There's very little room to get the fan ahead of the tie rod and then even so as I mentioned above when you turn the wheels the tie rod moves forward towards the rad.
     
  17. scrap metal 48
    Joined: Sep 6, 2009
    Posts: 5,880

    scrap metal 48
    Member

    Dropped arms and hairpins looks like the simplest fix.. Tie rod would run through hairpin...
     
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  18. Smaller diameter mechanical fan?
     
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  19. Never2old
    Joined: Oct 14, 2010
    Posts: 627

    Never2old
    Member
    from so cal

    Not pretty but I've seen a lot of tie rods out in front. :confused:
     
  20. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,453

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    As mentioned above not possible with the way my setup is designed. Flat front spring crossmember and suicide style spring mounts to the wishbones makes the frame and wishbone right next to each other = no way for the tie rod to go through.
    If it did it would have to pass through the wishbone and frame too :confused:

    I'm going to try a 13" mechanical fan, about the smallest I can find.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
    Just Gary likes this.
  21. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,453

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    No way, ugly and not right in any way regarding Ackerman etc., etc.
     
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  22. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 4,595

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    It's hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks like the top pulley is inline with the electric fan. It seems like a mechanical fan the same size and location as the electric fan should work fine.
     
    clem likes this.
  23. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,453

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    The center of the water pump pulley is about a 1/2" lower than the center of the electric fan.
    The electric fan is 12" and very thin so sits forward of the tie rod.
    The total of the electric fan diameter including the shroud ring I built around it is 13"

    I ordered the smallest mechanical fan I could find, a Derale 13".

    My plan is to remove the electric fan and bolt the mechanical one on, then disconnect my spring leaving the shocks mounted and then using my engine picker let the front come down to the shocks maximum down travel and see if there's any conflict between the tie rod and fan.

    If not I'll be good to go and build a new shroud.

    As you can tell I've been giving this a great deal of thought :D:D

    https://derale.com/products/belt-dr...2-electric-rad-fan-aluminum-shroud-kit-detail

    19113.jpg
     
  24. Happydaze
    Joined: Aug 21, 2009
    Posts: 928

    Happydaze
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Those flex fan won't see any love around here though...….

    Chris
     
  25. swifty
    Joined: Dec 25, 2005
    Posts: 1,636

    swifty
    Member

    Chris is right, electric fans and flex fans are as bad as each other. What grill shell are you running as if it's a 32 why not fit a pusher electric fan between the insert and the radiator. That's what I've done on 2 of my 32's and with the thermo switch it rarely comes on. I've used 14" mid range Spal fans and been happy with the set-up. BTW even fan shrouds are not traditional and should not even be necessary with an open engine bay set-up like yours.
     
  26. scrap metal 48
    Joined: Sep 6, 2009
    Posts: 5,880

    scrap metal 48
    Member

    Looking at your pics, It looks like you COULD use hairpins, dropped steering arms and run the tie rod through them.. Your tie rod is behind the spring and you could put spring mounts on bottom side of the hairpins.. But hey, just trying to help.. You could also "Z" the tie rod and run it under the spring as in this pic... The "Z" is for the spring not the hairpin....**clic pic** July sedan 016.JPG
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  27. nobux
    Joined: Oct 19, 2002
    Posts: 633

    nobux
    Member

    I agree. That fan is so unobtrusive, that I wouldn't mess with it. Loom the wiring and call it good. What fan is that?
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
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  28. mrharley51
    Joined: Sep 16, 2007
    Posts: 204

    mrharley51
    Member

    On the way back from the Nats Louisville one summer I put a nylon zip tie on my front chrome Pete and Jakes shock with dropped 4" super bell axle and posie s.s. spring. wanted to see how much travel I would use driving home to Detroit....10 hours later...1 inch of travel....no big surprise there...your set up looks good as is 100_6181.jpg
     
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  29. fiftyv8
    Joined: Mar 11, 2007
    Posts: 4,975

    fiftyv8
    Member
    from CO & WA

    Blue One, I feel for your predicament, as I have been in that situation a couple of times as well.
    Since you are so close now to being done, I would suggest finish it the way it is and give yourself some time to consider any mods later.
    You may come to, dare I say like it or be able to live with it as you originally planned.
    Either way it is a darn good build so don't let it chew you out too much...
     
    prewarcars4me, brEad and USMercUte like this.
  30. I much prefer these over a z-ed bar Screenshot_20181211-173609_Samsung%20Internet.jpeg

    Sent from my SM-G965U using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    scrap metal 48 likes this.

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