Technical Tire deterioration / When should you buy new ?

Point of order.

There are three basic tire designs that are still made.

Bias Ply tires, which is your classic pre-musclecar era tire that everyone rode on.
Bias Belted tires, with multi-lane highways/freeways these tires were better suited for extended higher speed traveling. Less heat, less rolling resistance, better economy.
Radial tires, lower rolling resistance like the Belted tires but with a softer sidewall that aided in better ride quality and handling.

Bias Ply tires are not 'cheap' compared to a Bias Belted. They are tires for different, expected use, road conditions. Bias Ply with its stiff construction yet lack of a flat contact patch allows for much better travel over irregular road surfaces. With the advent of high speed(paved) roadways the BP tires were Belted to provide better economy and response at higher speeds. It also provides a more consistent contact patch and better traction compared to a Bias Ply tire on improved roads.

 

Now I know why they call it a belt.

 

Drive your damn cars enough that you wear out the tires before it becomes a concern...


Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.

 

There ya go... This appears to be the final report, not the draft document I originally saw. Some additional data, less of the raw data... but pretty much the same conclusion. Again, I found the appendices as very informative. Several things of note...
The insurance company data that indicates that the majority of reportable tire failures occur in the sunbelt, with California, Arizona, Texas, Louisiana, and Florida being responsible for the majority of sunbelt failures. Those five states appear to account for about half of all tire failures in the US. Couple that with the admittance that lower ambient heat slows the aging process by exponential factors and maybe then some will understand why those of us that live in the lower temp zones call BS on some of this. If you live in a zone 8 or higher, you may be justified in screaming 'OMG OMG, YOUR TIRES ARE SIX YEARS OLD AND YOUR GONNA DIE!' but the reality for the rest of us is different. I live in zone 3, and while I've had more than a few tire failures over the years, I can't think of even one that could be blamed on age.

Also interesting is the 'statements' and/or excerpts from the various manufacturers. The vehicle manufacturers almost uniformly recommend a six year service life, no doubt influenced by the lawsuits generated over the Explorer/Firestone deal. When you get to the tire manufacturers, that uniformity disappears. Some recommend inspection at 5 or 6 years, a few peg max life at 6 years, some at 10, some don't have a recommendation for either. Even some of the ones that have recommendations admit that there's little accurate data, saying that 'they're unaware of any technical data that supports a specific tire life' but adopt those recommendations 'just because'. More than a few simply note that the tire is warranted 'for the life of the tread', no max life noted. Are these tire manufacturers foolhardy, or is it simply that they have more faith in their product?

One last thought. To hear some of the chicken littles on this subject tell it, aged tires are causing all sorts of highway carnage. To quote the report: 'From 1994 to 2004, NHTSA estimates that about 400 fatalities, annually, may be attributed to tire failures of all types.' (emphasis added). As this represents about 1% of all annual traffic fatalities, it's hardly an overwhelming problem. To further quote the report: 'Tire failures can be caused by a number of factors such as under- or over-inflation of tires, overloading of vehicles, road hazards, improper maintenance, structural defects, and improper installation in addition to tire aging, so it is difficult to estimate, based on crash statistics currently available, how many crashes are caused specifically by tire aging.'. Deduct out the 'other' causes, and 'tire age' becomes a vanishingly smaller number.

Granted, this report is from 2007 so some of the information is probably out of date. But I'm not aware that there's been any updated report issued either, so if someone has seen one posting it here would be a help. I suspect that since this report came out the outliers have fallen into line from industry pressure for a uniform message, regardless of if any facts have changed.

 

Thank you, not so "Crazy Steve". For a minute there I thought I was gonna hafta replace the new tires I put on my Corvette (that lives indoors in Minnesota) in 2012.

 

The problem today is most tire retailers have bought into this fully, no matter which temp zone they're in. Again, if you live in the sunbelt it's generally justified, but if you live where it's considerably cooler there's zero data to suggest that this is a real problem. When you go in for a routine tire service (flat repair, rotation, or swapping tire/wheels around) and they refuse to touch them and their 'inspection' consists of checking the date code, the suspicion that they're only in it for the money gets pretty high...

 

Interesting....down here where it gets warm, all the tire failures I've had that caused me real inconvenience, I can blame on the age of the tires (they came apart for no other apparent reason).

I hope you're not one of those guys who thinks he has to change his oil every 3000 miles....

 

Understandable, as you live in one of the worst environments for tire aging. But I don't, and applying the same standards to my tires is IMO no more than simple greed on the part of the retailers... and I suspect they know it.

 

They also have to cover their asses under all conditions....who knows when you might get tired of the cool, and move down here? It's been known to happen.

There is definitely a lot of room for judgement on the issue. I've gotten a pretty good feel for how long they last down here, and somewhere in the 5-10 year old range, it's time for new ones. Sooner for trailers, too, unfortunately.

 

Not very likely! ...When the temp here hits 85 the natives start swooning... LOL.

One of my club members 'snow-birds' and a few years ago he turned up with a new girlfriend from Arizona. 70 degrees (which is just about perfect t-shirt weather IMO) and she's wearing a fleece coat... LOLOL...

 

I know quite a few folks here who moved down from the PNW....hmmm....

and I tend to dress warm when it's in the low 70s, if the sun's not shining.

 

I am now very careful about date codes on tires . . . here's why.

Guy I worked with was headed back on a trip in a late model F-250. Just cruising along the interstate at 75 mph when the left front tire blew with no warning. He was in the right lane, older couple in the left lane passing him. Before he could react the truck turned sideways, collected the car, and they both went into the forested median at speed. The man in the car had minimal injuries, his wife died, and my friend was severely injured. Broken leg, arm, shoulder, and pelvis. Lots of internal injuries. He recovered after 18 months of hospitals, therapy, and learning to walk again. He will be in pain the rest of his life.

The rest of the story: The tires on that truck were "brand new". The manufacturer of the tires has a sell by date after which their dealers must destroy them if unsold. For whatever reason these tires aged out, and were supposed to be destroyed. But the dealer, unbeknownst to the manufacturer, instead sold them to a local tire store. They sat on the shelf there until my friends company bought new tires for his company truck. Turns out they were five years old when the "new" tires went on that truck.

The tire manufacturer stepped up and wrote a big check immediately - and now has a process in place to ensure aged out tires are truly destroyed. Tire store was sued and eventually paid up as well. Money will help him, but won't take the pain away, nor bring back the woman who died in the crash.

I drive enough miles that it isn't an issue on my daily's, but on low use collector cars, or trailers, I replace everything at five years no matter how good they look. And I check the dates on any new tires I buy before they are mounted. People at the tire stores think I'm crazy, but I don't care. Tires are cheaper than losing the car, or someone's life.

 

A guy escaped from prison a couple counties over a few years ago. A couple days passed and another chase began. After a shootout a cop car ended up in the ditch on a gravel road. A roll back showed up and the driver hopped out. BANG! The cops about crapped. The driver knew it was the tire blowing on the roll back.

 

I know quite few people who have places down there, but nearly all of them come back here when the temps climb.

 

"Turns out they were five years old when the "new" tires went on that truck."

So the tires were five years old when one failed, causing a terrible crash... doesn't that mean that you should replace them before they are five years old?

I also live in a cool climate, and have been running used tires on the family fleet for a couple decades.
I have had two failures in that time, both merely resulting in pulling over to find a ruined, utterly flat tire. Then again, I drive around 60 mph mostly, on secondary highways.
I have replaced several tires that grew lumps. Paying even a modicum of attention to the tires' physical condition will allow a motorist to replace them before failure, mostly.

Three of the four tires on my old pickup are date coded 1989, but I don't bother trying to decode my tire date codes generally. It's kind of curious that the date is coded, and not plainly printed on the tires.

 

This afternoon, my tires were "coded": 3715
37th week of 2015 - Not all that difficult to decode.

 

Everyone, and I mean everyone, should go back and read this in full. Post #72.

Do you think you could convince either the F-250 driver or the bereaved husband of the validity of the arguement to keep using older tires? It may be a reasonably rare occurence for tire failure to be able to be attributed to advanced ageing of the tire, but can we justify even the loss of one life, considering we are aware of the potential problem?

Also, ponder this. Can the fatal accident investigation discern whether the tire failed and caused the crash, or did the crash happen and cause the tire to blow. Do we really have a clue as to the potential danger that ageing tires actually pose. Probably better to err on the side of caution.

And, as I stated previously in this thread, the date stamp time frame has to be set as a defined time period, regardless of where the tire is sold, fitted, or used. To complain about this is ludicrous. Self-analysis of when your aged tires become unfit for purpose would rely on all to have the expertise and intelligence to do the job. Good luck with that. Fraught with danger, and a recipe for disaster.

One last quote for all to contemplate: "I'll be alright, it will never happen to me."

 

You're just grumpy.

 

Touche'..............now that's funny. You just made my day.

 

The information is available, all you need do is educate yourself. Or be a sheep and do as you're told. The choice is yours...

 

Yes, I get that, and I know a heap of people who I would trust to do it. In fact, I make it a point to surround myself with such people. There are also a lot of people out there that could f##k up a free lunch (let's not mention any names). That is the part I have a problem with. You will only get intelligent, responsible decisions from intelligent, responsible people. Some out there definately have the reasoning power of sheep, and as such, need to be told what to do. You seem to be an educated soul. Surely you agree.

 

Hello,

All of the tires we had on our old hot rods and cruisers were regular NEW bias ply or when radials came out, NEW radials. But, the only recaps we bought were the various slicks we used. In 1966, I bought a set of Inglewood Redline Posatraction tires. They were made from recaps, too It was less of a cost if an old set of Firestones was brought in to trade for the new Inglewood wide track tires. For some reason, they liked the Firestone cores for their recapping.

These Inglewood Tires made the El Camino handle like it was glued to the road. The wide tread pattern did well in the deep sandy desert roads, too. There is nothing better than driving a new car with well shaped, balanced and trued tires.

Like all things made of rubber, they eventually crack, especially tires with the odd angles of curves and forces being put on them daily. If they are sitting, like all things, they deteriorate and just age, like us. So, a 10 year old quality NEW tire will last with the latest rubber and technology, but it is wise to check for cracks and aging. As far as the tread is concerned, most can tell when the tread is getting smooth as the tires just won’t handle like it did when they were new.

As far as recaps, our dad’s mechanic friend in Los Angeles always told us to not skimp on tires. New ones, when balanced/aligned will keep the car handling well until the next big hole in the roadway. We may have skimped on oil, using the inexpensive reclaimed oil instead of new cans of Valvoline in our Flathead 40 Ford Sedan Delivery. But, our tires were not recaps. We always had new bias ply tires that fit, handled and rode well over the lifetime we owned the sedan delivery.
Stock appearing white wall cheater slicks, for a short duration, courtesy of Moxley Slicks.

The 58 Impala only had new tires from Firestone or Goodyear, depending on the availability and tread. We only ran the slicks at the dragstrips and sometimes on Saturday nights when rumors spread about a bunch of cruisers coming into the drive-in parking lot.
Bruce Slicks under the stock wheel well of the 58 Impala for time trials and late Saturday nights.

Jnaki

We were always told that high performance tires could go at least 25000 miles. Some did not even come close and we had to get new ones earlier than what was told to us. But, in some cases, those tires made the car handle and stop like it was grabbing the ground. They were excellent tires, but just did not last long. For daily drivers, hot rods or not, tires are not something that should be overlooked.

Checking the old style tires that have been neglected is wise. Buying new tires that fit is also wise. Why even think about it, safety for you and your family is utmost. Chuck those old tires and get new ones. The cost is minimal compared to the value of lives involved.

 

It just happened to me. My dually has 12 ply 19.5 tires. Way over rated for a pickup. The tires were given to me, used, about 10 years ago. They are inflated to 90 psi. Heard a very loud boom a week ago. Couldn’t figure out where the noise came from. Neighbors came out of the house at the same time wondering the same thing. Yesterday, I was wondering what the heck was that under the rear inner tire on the truck???

 

Last Summer I replaced the tires on my '31 "A" hiboy roadster and my '40 Ford coupe, both sets because of their age more than wear.
Figured maybe I ought to consider some tires with a high performance rating, like maybe a "V". Reasoning being that they are usually a softer rubber for better grip, and so what if they wore out in less miles as neither car gets driven enough to wear out tires before they are suspect due to age.
Well what I found is that there is a very limited selection of "V" rated tires in the 15" rim sizes that you'd use on a hot rod. A few in the smaller sizes you'd find on the smaller foreign sports cars like a Miata or some such, but not much for big & littles on a hot rod unless you bought some outlandishly big and wide stuff like the MT Sportsman and other stuff of that sort, often with raised white letters Plenty of stuff out there in the 18"-20", ultra low profile stuff
So, I've got BW normal street tires on the '40 and Diamond Back WWs on the '31, none of which are high performance tires..

 

I wonder if I should go on a long trip with this tire? It looks fine....

(Goodyear G-Metric 165SR15)

 

I change my tires every 6-7 years. I don't give a shit what some online "expert" may say. Not a sheep that follows what tire companies,insurance companies or "experts" say. My peace of mind is what matters and I feel comfortable in that year range. We can all babble about what we think is correct,warm vs cool etc etc but in the end it comes down to a personal choice what to do.

 

Pre-2000?

 

I think so.

 

Where's Old Wolf?

 

That's scary talk. Who is going to tell these people what to do? The educated? The educated in what? The enlightened? Who is intelligent and who is the sheep? Who decides this?

Post 72 is an emotional argument. It's a "Mike Drop" per say. Points start to deteriorate when the emotional arguments start. Points really start to deteriorate when name calling is resorted too. For example if someone holds a contrary opinion or dares to question the argument ; especially the emotional argument, or looks at the facts logically, suddenly they are sheep. Suddenly they need to be told what to do because they may not hold to the "right" opinion.

I empathize with the people Boatmark mentions in post 72. That's an unfortunate and sad event. With that said, the facts presented are somewhat one sided. He shared his reasons for his tire replacement regimen, that's understandable, that's his choice. He provided information, that's a good thing. His point can help others decide for themselves.

You mentioned other factors in this incident. Lets go into it further.
1. Excessive speed by both drivers. I know the reality of Interstate driving but the fact remains, both drivers were breaking the law. I know of no Interstate Highway that has a posted speed limit of 75MPH East of the Mississippi. Another factor alluded to in this incident is the vehicles running side by side at high speed. The car was said to be passing. Was this a slow pass or a quick pass? That info was not provided and frankly may be unknown.
A point I want to mention is the habit of drivers running side by side at high speed and the inherent dangers thereof. Factually, this played a roll in this death.

2. The tire blew with no warning. Did it really? Usually with a failure there is some type of warning. This warning may not have been noticed. This is conjecture. The fact is the driver states the tire blew suddenly. That may be so. We will get to tire age in a moment but lets look at other possible reasons for a sudden tire failure. The following questions need to be asked.
Was there a road hazard? A recent airplane crash in Paris was attributed to debris on the run way. This needs to be mentioned as a possibility.
The usual suspects as mentioned in Steve's posts, under inflation, heavy vehicle, high speed and possibly high temperatures, could this have contributed to the incident?
Could wheel damage cause this?
Could a mistake made installing the tire on the rim cause this?
Could this have been a faulty tire destined to "blow" or fail regardless?
How well maintained was the truck? I hesitate to bring this up but why were these tires bought at a discount tire store? Could this reflect the company's attitude about maintenance?
Since this was a work truck, could damage from the job sight or some type of extreme heavy duty use cause this?
I hesitate to say this one and this is by no means questioning the drivers character but did the tire really blow and or blow like the driver says?
In traumatic incidents people often search for a reason. People want a reason and sometimes they choose a reason especially if the alternative is condemning. They are not lying, they really believe it. Sometimes people choose to make something so because anything else is unfathomable. This goes back to possible warning signs "not noticed".

3. New Tires. It has been established that the tires were new but 5 years old. New tires can mean many things to many people. It can be assumed from the story that these tires were recently installed before the incident. Was this so? Was it a day before? A week? A year? Five Years?

4. The sell date. The manufacturer of the tires has a sell by date after which their dealers must destroy them if unsold. Why? Is there a reason for this? Does the manufacture recommend that sold tires in use be destroyed by the sale date? Could shop wear have a detrimental effect on tires?
Maybe the main lesson from this story may be to not buy new old tires. This means when purchasing tires, the dates need to be checked.

5. The settlement. Of course. In legal terms, this was the shotgun approach and low and behold the tire date issue comes up. A line Johnny Horton's "Sink the Bismark" comes to mind. " Hit the deck a runnin boys, spin those guns around." Once the tire date issue was discovered, those guns "spun" to the manufacturer and the tire store. It's conjecture but what if those tires had been in date? Would those guns have spun to the driver and his company?

This has become a critique of Boatmark's post 72. In critiques lessons are learned, possibilities are discussed. Most importantly recommendations and considerations are brought fourth to hopefully, prevent future incidents.

6. Possible lessons worthy of consideration.
Do not speed...
Avoid riding side by side at high speed on the Interstate or Highway...
When driving especially at high speed, pay close attention to the vehicle. Any, any anomaly no matter how minor, needs to be investigated as soon as possible. Speed needs to be reduced immediately...
Make sure tires are properly inflated especially on heavy vehicles...
Make sure the vehicle is well maintained, especially issues like wheel alignment and suspension...
For heavy duty use, discount tires should be avoided...
Make sure wheels especially the rim of the wheel is in good condition...
Consider replacement or at least a thorough inspection after heavy use or possible damage (this includes burnouts folks)
Inspect tires regularly, consider replacement for any anomaly found especially in a heavy use or high performance vehicle...
Make sure reputable people with the proper equipment install the tires...
Decide how old is too old...
Keep track of when you actually bought your "new" tires. Time has a way of flying by. Those new tires on your car may not be as new as you think. "Oh yeah, indeed it was 7 years ago when a bought those."
When purchasing new tires check the dates...

Lastly...
When you are driving, realize there is no safe place. You are not safe. You are quite literally engaging in an activity many times more dangerous than combat! You should never be truly comfortable. You should be like a fighter pilot, always on the lookout and always in tune your machine.