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Timing issues..any ideas?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by telecaster_6, Jan 27, 2007.

  1. telecaster_6
    Joined: Dec 8, 2001
    Posts: 484

    telecaster_6
    Member
    from Dorr, Mi

    So i'm desperately trying to get my 460 to fire up in my Model A. Its pretty radical and i'm running it on E-85 (trying to run...). Anyways, when i degree'd the cam, i set it straight up, so i know the cam timing isnt off, and i've rolled the engine over checking and re-checking valve timing in correlation to my timing marks on the balancer. I set initial timing to 8 degrees and had a buddy flash the timing light on it while cranking and it shows #1 is firing right at 8 degrees. It acts like its trying to fire, but the caughs up through the carb. I dont wanna crank on it too much as i havent broke the cam in yet, and its making me really nervous that this damn thing wont fire. I'm at a loss...i cant seem to figure out what would cause it to be backfiring through the carb with the timing set where it is...
    Any ideas?
     
  2. It's flooded...
     
  3. CptKaos
    Joined: Mar 11, 2006
    Posts: 152

    CptKaos
    Member

    try moving the dist while cranking until you get it to fire until you find the sweat spot, and make sure your battery is fully charged and the motor is spinning over fast enough.

    when flooded sparkinators dont spark, no spark = no backfire

    Larry
     
  4. telecaster_6
    Joined: Dec 8, 2001
    Posts: 484

    telecaster_6
    Member
    from Dorr, Mi

    I had my dad moving the distributor while i was trying to crank it the first time, got it to fire, then it kicked and blew the gears in my mini-started up. So i'm a little hesitant to make too much timing change. He probably didnt know and retarded the shit out of the timing (he's not much of a car guy). If i try it again, i'm gonna wanna advance it right? how much is too much?
     
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  5. CptKaos
    Joined: Mar 11, 2006
    Posts: 152

    CptKaos
    Member

    normally, when an engine kicks back and blows up a mini starter its because its too far advanced

    Larry
     
  6. telecaster_6
    Joined: Dec 8, 2001
    Posts: 484

    telecaster_6
    Member
    from Dorr, Mi

    So i should retard it till it evens out?
     
  7. CptKaos
    Joined: Mar 11, 2006
    Posts: 152

    CptKaos
    Member

    till what evens out? retard it from where it was when you broke the starter

    Larry
     
  8. thomson
    Joined: Jan 22, 2007
    Posts: 9

    thomson
    Member
    from sfca

    Start from scratch. Be absolutely positive you are on the compression and not the exhaust stroke. Bring the cylinder up slowly to the top of the barrell...TDC!!! wooo hooo..now check out where that pesky timing mark is and set the distributor. It should fire within a minute of cranking. Bring up to 1500 to 2000rpm the second you have oil pressure for ten minutes to break the cam in. Good luck....Thomson
     
  9. thomson
    Joined: Jan 22, 2007
    Posts: 9

    thomson
    Member
    from sfca

    Oh, please try for your first fire to fire on GASOLINE not E-85. The carbureation issues with E-85 are way too much to discuss here. Just think this for a carb on E-85....air bleed mods....drilling jets...mucho experimentation. best left for AFTER first fire.....Thomson
     
  10. Yo Baby
    Joined: Jul 11, 2004
    Posts: 2,812

    Yo Baby
    Member

    I don't know how often you do this stuff or anything but go back to basics when you have starting issues.A new motor when done right should light first piston up just like a well done one.LOL
    Did you prelube the motor?
    If you didn't pre lube,(pump up oil pressure before installing dist. Ie Run the pump till good pressure turn 1/4 turn run pump till good pressue) thru 8 1/4's the lifters prolly aren't pumped up and with a fairly big cam the valve timing is effectively late.
    Pre lube motor check #1 tdc carefully, re install dist and try again.
    Another common mistake with Fords is a tendency to think the cyls are 3rd 1357/2468 when in fact they are 1234/5678 with the front right cyl being #1.
    That's all I got for now.
    P.S. Be sure when checking #1 that you verify the intake opening and closing event and then go gently to tdc.
     
  11. rodknocker
    Joined: Jan 31, 2006
    Posts: 2,267

    rodknocker

    is your distibutor on the correct tooth?
     
  12. Lucky Strike
    Joined: Aug 14, 2004
    Posts: 1,666

    Lucky Strike
    Member

    I had something similar happen to me trying to crank up my 283 SBC last week. Pulled the distributor turned it around 180 degrees put it back in and it started on the first try. I could not belive it but I was off 180 out on the dizzzy.
     
  13. Yo Baby
    Joined: Jul 11, 2004
    Posts: 2,812

    Yo Baby
    Member

    That is why I said be sure to verify the intake valve opening and closing event and then sneak up on tdc.
    Most people who are un initiated don't realize that most v8 cam timing dots are set up on # 6 firing tdc instead of #1 firing tdc.#1 and #6 are 180* apart.
    I dont know why the dots on most v8's are set up to time to #6 tdc but they are.
    Consequently most people,even a lot of initiated ones set the cam up dot to dot and drop the dist. in set to #1 and this is why after trying to fire the motor and eating a starter or 2 and going through all the bs they move the dist. 180* and the motor fires right up.
    Which makes me wonder how it is that most people seem to know if it doesn't start the first time and boofs and bangs to move the dist. 180* and the engine will fire.
    How do they know to do that,and if they know to do that why don't they know why?LOL
    When I assemble a motor,I always run the valves before installing the intake(except FE Fords.LOL)This allows me to do 2 things (1) verify the valve lash,especially on hydraulic cams an 2 I get to witness the valve timing events and be sure I am at #1 firing tdc before dist. installation.
    On Fe's and Mopars and Pontiacs I do the valve lash thing by feel on hydraulic cams,Bottom the rocker shaft(or in the case of Pontiacs the nut) and then check that there is still crush left in the lifter on all 16 lifters before moving on to the priming and the tdc thing.
     
  14. lolife
    Joined: May 23, 2006
    Posts: 1,123

    lolife
    Member

    I'm with you on that ;) flip the damned thing already.

    What kind of carb mods you running for E-85 (that's 85% alcohol right?)
     
  15. Yo Baby
    Joined: Jul 11, 2004
    Posts: 2,812

    Yo Baby
    Member

    P.S. E85 is not user freindly for cold starts especially on "Pump Gas"compression ratios.
     
  16. telecaster_6
    Joined: Dec 8, 2001
    Posts: 484

    telecaster_6
    Member
    from Dorr, Mi

    The carb is built especially for E-85. Its been wet flowed and everything. The carb shop that built it (A.E.D. performance) supposadly has been doing a bunch of research with dyno runs and trips to the track experimenting with E-85.

    I've already pulled the valvetrain down to watch my valve timing and everything is working right, my timing mark is coming in right after TDC on my compression stroke of #1.

    When i go to turn my distributor 180 degrees, is that just the distributor body and still line up my rotor with the #1 wire? or will i be trying to fire a different plug when #1 comes up to TDC?
     
  17. 2manybillz
    Joined: May 30, 2005
    Posts: 827

    2manybillz
    Member

    I think Yo Baby hit all the points. Verify #1 TDC with valves closed, set the distributor right and recheck the firing order, and maybe prime it with a squirt of gas (not a splash from an open container, be safe). Hope this pic shows up.
     

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  18. 2manybillz
    Joined: May 30, 2005
    Posts: 827

    2manybillz
    Member

    Ya don't want to turn the distributor body, pull the distributor and turn the rotor 180.
     
  19. Yo Baby
    Joined: Jul 11, 2004
    Posts: 2,812

    Yo Baby
    Member

    You will need to pull the dist. and turn the shaft to line up your rotor with #1.
    As a side note #1 needs to be in the correct place on the cap just like the book shows it ,to be "in phase".
    Particularly if you are running a hot ignition like MSD.Because if it is not "in phase" it will eat rotor buttons and schtuff like that in a very short period of time once you get it running.
    Ask me how I know.LOL
     
  20. telecaster_6
    Joined: Dec 8, 2001
    Posts: 484

    telecaster_6
    Member
    from Dorr, Mi

    Well as it is right now, when #1 comes up to TDC on compression, the rotor is at #1 wire, and the cap is aligned as all my BBF diagams show. So turing it 180 would put me at #6 i believe.
     
  21. Yo Baby
    Joined: Jul 11, 2004
    Posts: 2,812

    Yo Baby
    Member

    You are dead bang certain you watched the INTAKE VALVE open and then close and then snuck up to #1 tdc mark and not just stuck a finger in the plug hole and then bumped motor until it went swoosh and then snuck up to #1.Cause if the valve train ain't pumped up,stickin your finger in the hole can screw you to tears particularly if you have a pretty big cam because you can lose nearly half the lift and duration and the valves close early and that can make a liar outta the finger and swoosh deal.
    Oh and 1 other thought,you aren't running one of those lower crank gears that have 3 different slots are ya?
    I've seen more than one good mech get distracted by a phone or a walk in in the middle of timing that deal and wind up tearing down to correct the problem.
    I know,I know,but it happens.;)
     
  22. telecaster_6
    Joined: Dec 8, 2001
    Posts: 484

    telecaster_6
    Member
    from Dorr, Mi

    I watched the vavletrain like a hawk a few times...just to make sure. As far as the adjustable timing chain set up, i'm pretty sure, but hell, its been like a year since my buddy (LoBrow) and I installed the cam. We went through the whole cam timing deal and everything came out fine, If i remember the cam was like 2 or 3 degrees off, but not enough to make a timing chain adjustment. Could the E-85 fuel just be extremely picky on timing that i just havent hit the sweet spot with it yet? I'm sure the fact my garage is about 20 degrees doesnt help matters either.
     
  23. joeybsyc
    Joined: Nov 8, 2006
    Posts: 803

    joeybsyc
    Member
    from PA

    Before you do anything else, I'd pull a couple plugs and see if theyre all gas fouled... I had a similar problem of trying to start my car when it was out of time and all 8 plugs were soaked with gas and it wouldn't run even when it was IN time...Mine was too far retarded and would run, but backfired sporadically. All 8 of my plugs were sooty and soaked with gas... i changed all 8, fired it up and rest the timing and it was fine. Check the plugs out, if they look all black and/or wet, dry em out or change em before you even try to get it running again. I've found that its usually something simple, plus those are easy things to check first.
     
  24. recardo
    Joined: Aug 31, 2006
    Posts: 833

    recardo
    Member
    from Winslow

    Change the carb, and break the thing in on gasoline. When you're done switch to alcohol. 20 degrees is too cold unless you have a fuel heater.
     
  25. telecaster_6
    Joined: Dec 8, 2001
    Posts: 484

    telecaster_6
    Member
    from Dorr, Mi

    I have a spare 750 holley sitting around. I'd probably have to try to get some race gas since the comp. ratio is 12:1 though.
     
  26. Yo Baby
    Joined: Jul 11, 2004
    Posts: 2,812

    Yo Baby
    Member

    If you're certain about everything else.Check the plugs.It doesn't take much fuel to screw 'em up.
    You won't need race gas just to fire it.Once it actually lites it'll prolly be okay on the E85.
    Screw in a new set and start it on gas if it's really cold.
    My experience running real methanol,lol has taught me to cold start on gas.A 12:1 plus motor with the lead where it is supposed to be can eat starters like candy on cold start ups especially in cold climes.
    You might wanna drain the bowls and fill 'em with gas for initial start up and from then on just dribble a bit down it's throat for cold clime starts.
    Good luck on your mission.
     
  27. 7&7
    Joined: Jan 6, 2006
    Posts: 360

    7&7
    Member
    from Colorado

    What kind of ignition are you using? Please do not go any further until you find a definate problem, you will kill the cam for sure.
     
  28. telecaster_6
    Joined: Dec 8, 2001
    Posts: 484

    telecaster_6
    Member
    from Dorr, Mi

    I've been checking the plugs each time i crank it, and if they are a little wet, i burn them off with a small propane torch and clean the electrodes off.
    The ignition system is a mallory unilite, mechanical only. MSD 6AL box with a MSD blaster 2 coil.
     
  29. Yo Baby
    Joined: Jul 11, 2004
    Posts: 2,812

    Yo Baby
    Member

    You'll learn to hate the Mallory unilite sooner or later.LOL
    You can run regular high quality points with the MSD and they last forever as the points just become a trigger instead of carrying the entire ignition load like they do in stock configuration and if you carry a spare condenser and a small jumper lead,if the MSD ever screws up you can just pop in the condenser and jumper and it'll get ur ass home.
    Any way back to the thing at hand.If you have fouled the plugs repeatedly they prolly are sending the fire down the side on a carbon track seeing as how E85 still has gas in it and gas without a soda or sandblaster fucks a plugs world up especially in a high compression environment.Drying them with a torch will not get rid of the carbon only blasting will.
    Go back to the initial timing setting maybe a bit conservatively,screw a new set of plugs in it. Drain the bowls and fill 'em with gas through the vents and light that mother up.
    Oh are you running an electric pump? If so,just so ya know,if the carb is set up for alchy and have alchy needle and seats(.100-.125),it will not tolerate near as much fuel pressure as gas ones.About half as a rule,6-8 psi max.
    Before ya screw the new plugs in,turn on the pump and look down the carbs throat and make sure it's not flooding from excess fuel pressure because if that is the case you'll prolly never get an answer.
     
  30. telecaster_6
    Joined: Dec 8, 2001
    Posts: 484

    telecaster_6
    Member
    from Dorr, Mi

    Thanks for all the advice first off..
    I'm running a Jegs billet electric pump, 140 gph. I set fuel pressure at 7 psi. I already hate that damn distributor as i had to put a new ignition module in it ($110). I do have a dual point mallory laying around.....
    When i get some time towards the end of the week, i'm gonna go back through and re set-up the valve train, put in a new set of plugs, and re set my initial timing. I'm really tempted to put on my spare 750 holley and start it up on regular gas first, especially since its suppose to be in the single digits all this week here.
    Wish me luck...
     

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