Steering U-joints need to be in phase?

I was just reading this article on steering joints setup (http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/techarticles/custom_steering_system/index.html) and they mention the u-joints need to be in phase.

Do they mean like a driveshaft? I never thought the u-joints needed to be in phase, I only thought that they should be at the minimal angle possible... Its not like they spin at consistent RPMs or need to be balance...

 

It certainly doesn't hurt if you are running more than one U joint to phase them. Phase is just a fancy word for getting them lined up.

 

Driveshaft u-joints absolutely, positively need to be in-phase, to cancel out vibration.

Steering u-joints, not so much. They are not operated at a speed where it would make a difference.

If you are running DD shaft in-between two joints, you don't get a choice. They will go on the way they are machined. From what I have seen, that has been in-phase, but I have not seen them all.

 

In terms of the out-of-phase effect, I think the output shaft would be speeding up and slowing down ever so slightly as you turned the wheel, w/an "average" rpm equal to your "input".

 

Oh okay now I get it.

That brings me to my next question. I want to keep the column and wheel thats in my F100, but want to hook it up to the Jag rack thats going in. What's the best way to do this so its strong and safe? Since the original shaft and steering box is one piece, should I cut it off at the base and weld a u-joint to the end? Or should I weld a coupler and then use a splined shaft & u-joint so the welding doesn't hurt the joint? Or is there a better way? I don't want it to be half-assed and in the back of my mind everytime I drive the truck.

 

Of course, but would you notice it?

 

This is Borgeson's statement on u-joint orientation. phasing is important.

U-Joint Orientation
When two joints are used on a shaft, the forks of the yokes
closest to each other should be in line, or “in phase.” Premature
wear or binding can result if the u-joints are not phased
properly. Sometimes if the u-joints are at a severe angle,
even if they are phased correctly, a hard spot in the steering
may occur for no apparent reason. If this happens, index the
u-joints two or three splines in one direction. The hard spot
should disappear or be minimized

 

Gimpy, you're on the mark.

Wonder if we need to worry about the angles of the rack/box and steering column to cancel the vibration too!

 

Weld a splined or "DD" end on where you cut the shaft and jacket off the box. You will also need to add a bearing at the bottom of the jacket (I believe ElPolacko has the part # memorized...), and some sort of heavy(ish) floor plate to attach the column jacket to the cab floor. Sheet metal screws are ok, just make sure the plate is large and heavy enough so that normal use won't move the column around or allow it to push through the floor.

 

What do you mean by 'jacket off the box?'

Thanks.

 

Try this:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#ball-and-roller-bearings/=9168bk

 

Lord help us all if we do.

 

Of course, but would you notice it?
Well, I'm remembering a sine wave, indicating the output speed, that rose slightly above and below the input shaft speed (a horizontal line, of rotation velocity). The variation in speed would be affected by how severe the angle was between the shafts. Not likely to harm things with small "steering" inputs. Being in phase would make the issue moot. (go away!)
Elpolacko and Mr Gimp have a good handle on the methods.

 

Matt,
The outer tube (column) that surrounds the steering shaft is referred to as the jacket. I believe you were planning on cutting the column off the box, so you will have 2 separate pieces to deal with...the outer jacket and the shaft itself. You will need that bearing that ELPolacko listed to fit between the 2 to keep the shaft from moving around since it's no longer aligned by the steering box.

 

Gotcha. I love the instant help you get on the HAMB.

 

I wouldn't weld onto to steering shafts. Instead, I'd grind a "D" into the cut end of the column, and install a u-joint. Clean, simple, effective, and most of all: safe.

 

Borgeson makes a coupler that is 3/4"-DD on one end and 3/4"-smooth bore on the other. It is designed to be welded to a 3/4" shaft. Its part number is 314900.

That is what I use.

 

Welding the shafts really is ok...as long as you know what you're doing. Most ALL race car steering shafts are welded together at some point.

 

I don't recommend it on any u-joint where you cannot remove the bearings before welding. The heat from the weld will ruin the grease, possibly leading to premature failure, or bind.

 

when welding 'u' joints to shafts I put the 'u' joint submerged in water with the area to be welded exposed. TIG welding around the shaft. This prevents damage to the bearings & will also work in many applications where welding heat neds to be isolated.

 

When assembling shafts (especially from used or OEM donor stuff), I try to do all the welding on the shaft itself, away from the u-joint. My original suggestion was for Matt to weld a spline coupler on the end of the shaft and use a splined joint. I never weld anything directly TO the u-joint unless it's absolutely the only way to do it... Again, just my own experience.

 

For the most part phasing a steering column U-joint is an exercise in asthetics - especially if the input and output shafts aren't parallel which is probably the case 99.9% of the time. If you REALLY want to get anal - you might even want them a bit out of phase to deal with the non complimentary ujoint angles. (This ought to open up a can of worms ;-)

I say it's possibly a good idea - but not necesary! YMMV

 

Having your u-joints in phase is more important than you think. Even more so the larger the angle gets. You will get a hard spot every 1/2 turn if they are out of phase. I can not tell you how many u-joints I have replaced. If they are out of phase you will also greatly reduce the life of the joint. My .02

 

I've welded dirt track steering systems together for over 20 years. From stock car to mods to late models. Most are a splined u-joint leaving the steering rack/box, a shaft, another joint, a shaft that is supported and a final joint and short shaft to the quick release for the wheel. Some will add other pieces for speeders, etc.

They must be in phase, your steering will go quicker and slower as you turn the wheel thru it's arc. You can feel it if it's out very far. You will also encounter the afore mentioned binds.

I have always welded mine solid. Tack the whole system together on the car, make sure everything is straight and phased then remove it as one piece and weld each joint in a single pass. I usually weld the front side of each junction between tube and joint first and weld each junction from front to back on the setup. I then let it air cool and when cool do the back side of all the junctions, again front to back. I move my ground clamp for each weld so no current travels thru the joint. Always put the ground on the tube you are welding on. I tend to weld at the tube and dip towards the joint, I mig everything.

Never had a joint fail doing it this way. Dirt racing steering takes some serious abuse. I've seen more set screws fall out of splined joints at the rack/steering box/speeder over the years than anything else for steering shaft concerns.

JMO
SPark

 

HemiRambler, ElP, etc, y'all know there are execptions to every rule including phasing on this very low speed driveshaft. Angles are the reason to come to play. And on this note, I'll with give OT examples with results based on common thinking. On the same note, the exceptions to the rule were figured out by vehicle manufacturing engineers to make whatever work.
'67 -'69 Camaro 30 degree out of phase rotated one direction is the best, high speed driveshaft.
Some kind of bus related to a Greyhound and the like. Driveshaft from the 90 degree gearbox below the steering column to the steering box at the axle assembly. Worn u-joints, out of phase, and splines worn like a Jeep that lived in mud. Quirky steering. New shaft with tight splines, u-joints, phasing, no balance--big pig of a vehicle drives with no quirks. I was advised to not repair because of liability because in steering---a lot less torque than a dirt car shaft on the same size u-joint.
Steering shaft on a semi-tractor that had u-joints replace and tech having changed phasing from same as the truck was born-----steering having become twitchy and quirky. Incidentely, a truck of the same generation is on the yard, match out of phase with another truck-----smooth, non-twitchy, non-quirky.
Exceptions to the rule will be built and are out there. That's where I will bow out.

 

+1

Never seen a joint destoyed from welding. Have seen many destroyed from being out of phase.

 

OUCH! Pitman, you make my head hurt!!
Hey, but this is all good info from everyone. I have an F-100 box I'll be putting in my rod, too, so this is a great thread.
Plus, I won't have to use the search function at a later date...
Thanks!

 

So the consensus is that it's generally best to keep them in phase. It still kinda baffles me why it matters.

 

Have you ever been escaping the bad guys to only get caught and tied up for ransom because your steering was notchy?



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If the man and the company who holds the patent on these damn things (from 1916) says to keep them in phase, that's good enough for me. Why argue with the millions of dollars spent on engineering studies for them? As someone else stated; "there are exceptions to every rule", but why fight it? If you can build a better u-joint set-up, make it and patent it....