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Technical Steering Stops

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Ben Chirco, Apr 9, 2020.

  1. nobby
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 465

    nobby
    Member

    your axle has a perch pin boss of 2 inches
    IF it had a boss of 2 1/4
    you would have an extra 1/8 clearance
    but - you don't need it - it looks like the axle has had a clearance 'tickle'

    it looks like they may be original 1940 perch pins - chromed
    you cannot fit a reversed eye spring as your tie rod will hit the underside of the chassis.
     
  2. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 15,518

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    No such thing as 1940 perch pins with spring bosses. Probably 32-34, or aftermarket.

    Take a look at the pic in post #27. Seems to me he has a lot of room between the tie rod and the frame rail. Might be closer at the front crossmember, or maybe the crank pulleys, but the frame rail isn't going to be a clearance problem with a reversed eye spring.
     
  3. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 76

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    My axle has a perch pin boss of 2 inches
     
  4. bchctybob
    Joined: Sep 18, 2011
    Posts: 2,211

    bchctybob
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    Like Alchemy said, the tie rod clearance to the radius rod is controlled by the shape of the steering arms and the radius rod itself, the spring won't change that. have someone steer the car in both directions, if they don't hit when steering lock to lock you're fine.
    As far as the spring-to-axle clearance, does it look like the spring has been rubbing on the top of the axle? If there is no recent burnishing or scuffing your ok. A miss is as good as a mile there too.
     
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  5. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 76

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    Update on the steering. I still need some help here.
    I ordered the short pitman arm from Pete and Jakes.
    I ordered a new 1968 mustang steering box with a 1 1/8" shaft, 5 turns lock to lock.
    I was sent a 4 turn lock to lock. I did not test this prior to install.
    I installed this all. Pitman arm is facing straight up and lined up with the factory center line mark.
    When I turn right, it takes 1 3/4 turns of the wheel to stop. I installed a stop on the king pin lock to stop from hitting the bone.
    When I turn left, it takes 2 1/8 turns to stop. No need for a stop here as the wheel just stops. This is when I disconnected the drag link to test and found it was a 4 turn lock and not a five turn lock. I dont think this is my problem.
    Any ideas on why it is not the same?
     
  6. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,345

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    Obviously the factory " centerline" mark is not the center ???
     
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  7. wuga
    Joined: Sep 21, 2008
    Posts: 332

    wuga
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The number of turns doesn't matter, just means quicker steering and more effort needed. Disconnect your drag link, make sure the wheels are aligned and centered, center your steering box, install the pitman arm at 12 oclock, install the drag link without changing any of the other adjustments and install steering stops just before the steering reaches full travel left and right. Keep the drag link parallel to the ground. It works.
    Warren
     
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  8. Fordors
    Joined: Sep 22, 2016
    Posts: 2,755

    Fordors
    Member

    Way back in post 36 @anothercarguy illustrated proper geometry for the pitman arm to have the same travel when the steering wheel was turned right and left. What I’m wondering is if that has to be taken a step further. Look at the ‘32-‘34 spindle, the steering arm is not perpendicular to the backing plate flange, it leads the centerline of the axle by an inch or so, putting the arm 90* to the drag link. Aftermarket steering arms have their c/l on the axle c/l, does that cause the right turn to be effected “quicker”, or to put it another way will it require less input at the steering wheel?
     
  9. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 76

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    Here are some pictures of furthest left, furthest right and center of the steering box (confirmed by rotating the wheel-factory mark was correct). I added a washer as a shim at the top bolt which is the one that holds the steering box to the bracket. It helped to bring the pitman arm to exactly 12:00.
    al1.JPG al2.JPG al3.JPG
    Now by turning the wheel I have:
    1 3/4 turns to the right stop.
    2 1/4 turns to the left. this is where the steering wheel stops turning. I have about 1" to the bone and i am not hitting the stop. So I am not getting full radius to the left.
    Would the 5 turn box help here?
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2020
  10. town sedan
    Joined: Aug 18, 2011
    Posts: 1,290

    town sedan
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    After turning the wheel, without the linkage attached, all the way to the right then counting the turns to take the wheel all the way to the left. Do you feel a little tightness when arriving back at what should be the midway point? Is this the same point you've come to before?

    Just throwing this out there and it probably isn't right since I'm often wrong. But couldn't the pitman arm be clocked a little to the "long side" to try equalizing out the sides?
    -Dave
     
  11. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 76

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    Thanks for the ideas.
    The pitman arm it is set up so it can be installed at 90 degree intervals. I believe I could grind out the splines to reclock it if needed. And I will if that is the answer. I also believe I can accomplish a bit of degree change buy adding a washer or two at the top, but I did not notice an improvement when I did that.
     
  12. town sedan
    Joined: Aug 18, 2011
    Posts: 1,290

    town sedan
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    1 & 3/4 turns to the right with 2 & 1/4 to the left. That's 4 turns lock to lock and why I wondered if you'd actually found the center of the box when hooking everything up.
    -Dave

    edit: Did you check the number of turns lock to lock before installing the box? If so was it 4 turns or 5 turns I've read both mentioned here.
     
  13. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 76

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    It is 4 turns.
    I did find center of box. it is centered
     
  14. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 76

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    Rereading this entire thread, I noticed Seb Fontana told me in post 39 that i would have this problem and actually gave me the solution. A different steering box or move the turning the pitman arm. I will start looking.

    I just called my uncle who has a 36 ford as well as other cars and is an awesome mechanic. He read this thread. Getting him on line and finding this thread was quite a challenge with an old timer, but I did it. He read the thread then we discussed it. The discussion led to a question of the steering stops screwed to the king pin bolts.

    Because I did not know any be better, I was grinding the stops so I can as much as a turning radius as possible. My uncle suggested that I should not be doing this. I was using the fancy lug nuts as stops. So I am now going to try to find the correct stops. How do I know what a correct stop should be? I know I can buy the stops, but are they universal?

    Thanks
     
  15. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,345

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    I gotta say I'm honestly confused , you state that its a 4 turn box ,you state you've checked and found center , how then can you not have 2 turns each way ,being that 2+2=4 ???
     
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  16. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 76

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    1 3/4 and 2 1/4. That's how I get the 4 turns. Unbalanced
     
  17. town sedan
    Joined: Aug 18, 2011
    Posts: 1,290

    town sedan
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    That's the same spot that confused me. Maybe one of the more knowledgeable members can explain it.

    If you've got a box that's 4 turns lock to lock and you start out from the true center, how can you turn the box more than 2 turns in either direction.

    Maybe it's new math, or one of the foldable laws of physics that I could never wrap my head around? I'm going back to reread post 39 you noted above.
    -Dave
     
  18. Fordors
    Joined: Sep 22, 2016
    Posts: 2,755

    Fordors
    Member

    Scan0073.jpg
    Your use of the term unbalanced is perfect, that helps describe what I was trying to explain in my earlier post.
    In the sketch I'm showing the steering arm designed for the '32-'34 spindle, the arm was not on the centerline of the axle so that the drag link could be at a 90° angle. I was thinking that when using an aftermarket steering arm that is on the axle centerline it might affect the turning radius and make it uneven. I guess I should have stayed awake more in Geometry class, but maybe we can get @anothercarguy to give an opinion like he did in post 36. He has a much better grasp of geometry than I do. So the question is this- would a 90° angle at the steering arm/drag link balance the steering? I always thought that was the reason they did it that way for '32-'34.
     
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  19. @Fordors you have a point, but based on Ben's photos of his front steering arm, it is already the "dogleg" version which I believe takes this into account (by moving the draglink hole slightly forward of the axle/kingpin centreline).

    @Ben Chirco , you need to:
    1. With only the steering wheel/column connected to the steering box (no pitman arm, no drag link)...turn the box all the way one way, and then all the way the other, counting turns and making a point of noting where exactly the center point of the steering box is (presumably 2 full turns in from each extreme). Leave the steering box at the exact center point.
    2. With the steering box exactly centered, measure and make sure your tires are pointing straight ahead (they are not yet connected to the steering box).
    3. Without moving the steering box/steering wheel, install the pitman arm on the steering box at the 12 o'clock position. If you need to file the master splines of the pitman arm to align with the master splines on the steering box in order to achieve 12:00, do so (as previously described in this thread).
    4. With the steering box centered, the pitman arm at 12:00 and the wheels pointing straight ahead, adjust the length of your drag link so it drops into place on the steering arm and pitman arm.
    5. Lastly, adjust your spindle stops (they can be shortened if necessary or a washer can be added if they need to be lengthened) so that the tires stop turning just before the steering box reaches max turn on each end, and/or before your tires contact the drag link, wishbones, fender braces or anything else they may come into contact with.
    6. Enjoy the ride...
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2020
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  20. wuga
    Joined: Sep 21, 2008
    Posts: 332

    wuga
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Isn't that what I said back in post 67?
    Warren
     
  21. Yup!
     
  22. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,345

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    I missed it before but I just read that you aren't hitting the stops at full lock . If that's the case , your pitman arm is too short or your steering arm is too long ...
     
  23. wuga
    Joined: Sep 21, 2008
    Posts: 332

    wuga
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Glad to see two Canadians can agree on this.....and reinforcement was probably necessary.

    Ben....did you replace the king pin locking bolt and stop cap on both sides? When you get your steering centered, what is the car's turning radius? 2old2fast may be right in that you are not getting enough travel in your steering arm. your steering box should never bottom out in either direction. If you are satisfied with the turning radius and you have replaced the stop nuts and they are not doing their job, I have seen longer nuts available, maybe at speedway.

    Warren
     
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  24. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 15,518

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Ben, since you seem to be getting such a long thread and losing yourself in the advice, take a step back. Just do exactly what Anothercarguy said a few posts up on #79. That is exactly what needs to be done. All of it, in that order. When you have done all that and given it a test try, report back to us.

    And, don't concern yourself too much about the talk of stock 32 spindle arms being slightly forward of centerline. I think you will be just fine with the existing arm.

    And, you have checked to see if your tire is making contact with the drag link on full left turn, right?
     
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  25. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,345

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    Its not particularly healthy for the travel of the steering box to also be the limiter , that's why there are spindle stops , they limit travel before the box limits out ...that will put undo/ excessive pressure against the gear ....
     

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