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Technical Steering Stops

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Ben Chirco, Apr 9, 2020.

  1. nobby
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 607

    nobby
    Member

    from 12 oclock to 2 = 2
    from 12 oclock to 10 = 2
    basic geometry dictates that how you have it set now the arcs of the pitman are the same, but the distance from their end travel positions back through the centre of the sector is not
     
  2. nobby
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 607

    nobby
    Member

    while I am on
    the word 'cotter' means wedged pin
    the word cotter pin is in my opinion associated mostly with cotter pin steel cranks on push bikes (UK)
    the usa didn't see bike cranks with cotter pins, as you used the 1 piece snake cranks system.
    then came campagnolo with cotter-less crank aluminijum square wedge mating.
    the word was lost.
    so your king pin does receive a cotter pin,
    you castellated nut a split pin

    ok I am really bored now...……
     
    charleyw likes this.
  3. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 81

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    nobby,
    Thanks for the picture. i get it.

    The vega arm is too long. I checked the dimensions. It will hit the fender, But i think you guys are really helping me out. I looked up "short vega pitman arm" and see that Pete and Jakes sells them. I have not researched that yet. Or i could buy a vega arm and have it cut by a pro and welded. Or i could have my arm cut and welded.
     
  4. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 16,247

    alchemy
    Member

    Don't worry about a Vega arm, there are plenty of aftermarket Mustang arms out there in a nice straight shape (even some fancy polished stainless ones). If you place a wanted ad (state the spline diameter you need and the C to C length) in the classifieds you might get a hundred responses. Many guys are removing the Mustang boxes (commonly installed with 4-bars) to backdate their hot rods.

    Also, you don't want any offset in your arm, it should be straight. If you kick it outward, the tire will hit the drag link on full turn.
     
  5. nobby
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 607

    nobby
    Member

    is your spring rubbing the top of your axle
     
    acme30 likes this.
  6. Take a look at this sketch. It may help you to understand why it's important to get your pitman arm to the 12:00 position.

    20200410_090439_resized (002).jpg
    Remain calm...you can do this. There is an abundance of excellent knowledge on the HAMB and an amazing willingness to help others to get through their challenges
     
  7. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 81

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    Thanks for the drawing. It did help. Once the vega pitman arm came into play, I started to realize that this is doable. I know the vega is too long and i spent some time looking for a shorter one.

    I finally decided to modify my pitman arm and have a welder weld it at 12:00. This also allows me to use my existing splines.

    I cut mine apart and set the steering box to center, I then tack welded the pitman to be where i want it. I am bringing it to an excellent welder that i know very well. He will do a good job with it. I do understand that this must be done by someone who knows his business. He does.

    nobby, thanks for the clarification of the "cotter pin". My spring is not resting on the axle. I have about 1/8" . See picture below. Why, what am i not seeing that needs to be repaired?
    spring.JPG

    Thanks for all the encouragement and help so far. No way i could have done this without you guys.

    I still need to get the drag link, but that should be easy.
     
    harpo1313 likes this.
  8. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 6,762

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    No one has noticed that you don't have 4 bar but standard "Bones". Even when and if you mount a steering arm at 12 o'clock you will still have unequal steering between left and right; even stock Fords are unequal. The long nuts on the king pin locks are to limit total travel, not equal travel. There is a way to get equal steering at the steering wheel..Remove the four wide splines and mount the Pittman arm 2/3 (4) splines towards 2 o'clock with steering wheel on center and adjust drag link for wheels straight ahead. That will equal out steering wheel. But you are a candidate for bump steer with the Pittman arm at 12 o'clock. Pittman should be at 6 o'clock and by your picture close to top of bone for no bump steer but that would require a reverse rotation box from what you have now. Notice in diagram the Pittman arm is towards 8 o'clock. [​IMG]
     
    pitman, alanp561, Johnny Gee and 3 others like this.
  9. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 6,762

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    Would be nice if you filled in your location.
     
    lothiandon1940 likes this.
  10. Good catch, but I believe the Mustang steering box works backward for the application as you have it. I think this is where the f1 steering box would be required.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
    town sedan likes this.
  11. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 6,762

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    I did say he would need a reverse box.
     
    lothiandon1940 and anothercarguy like this.
  12. bchctybob
    Joined: Sep 18, 2011
    Posts: 2,746

    bchctybob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Seb has a valid point but I don't think the poor guy wants to totally change the steering box right now he only wants to make sure it's steering ok and safe. It sounds like he is just getting his feet wet in the hobby.
    Ben, your first picture in Post #15 shows the Pitman arm and the drag link in a position that is dangerously close to over-centering and locking the steering in that direction. Especially with screwed up steering stops. That is ONE good reason everyone is suggesting the 12 o'clock position and equal motion. The geometry provided by Anothercarguy clearly demonstrates the other.
    Hang in there man, it sounds like you are on a good path. Later, to get to the ideal geometry shown in Seb's second diagram you might look into converting to an F1 or F100 steering box that uses the downward pointing Pitman arm.
     
    anothercarguy likes this.
  13. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 81

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    I received a phone call last night that my pitman arm is welded at 12:00. I am going to pick it up today and install it.

    I am just getting my "feet wet in this hobby". I am super impressed how you guys can build cars from a bunch of parts. I read a lot about the builds on this site and am truly amazed.

    I have other antique cars, but they are all stock original restoration cars. Junk I bought and restored myself. These are projects where there is an exact placement of parts. They look good to me and are done to the best of my ability. I love driving them and saying I did it myself. As a result my kids are very interested in them also. And that is important to me.

    I have read a lot about the f1 steering, and am interested in learning about the f100 steering. I have a 1966 f100 and 1975 f100 that I have restored and as a result of plenty of parts left over from par3ts trucks including steering boxes. I think its the 1966 steering boxes you are referring to?

    My plan is to make this Model A safe and drive it and meet guys with similar interests who are smarter than me. As I learn more, I plan to upgrade the car. My cousin, who lives 5 hours away, is like you guys. He can build anything and is an awesome mechanic. He is an excellent fabricator. He has me convinced I need a flathead in the car. He has one in his 36. He is a great help to me. But he is 5 hours away.

    I will post more once I get it together.

    Thanks
     
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  14. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 16,247

    alchemy
    Member

    The era F-100 steering box that is commonly used in old Ford hot rods is 1953-56. The 1957 to approx 1960 is similar I think, but the flange is different, and probably the length. Even if you get the early ones they are not a bolt in. They need flange mods and probably the shaft length too. Not for a beginner.
     
  15. Gary Addcox
    Joined: Aug 28, 2009
    Posts: 2,414

    Gary Addcox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The pitman arm on the steering box should be pointing straight up when you're moving straight down the street and the steering wheel is straight. Your pitman arm on the steering box is not indexed according to the pictures. There are aftermarket pitman arms that don't have index reliefs. You most likely need one with continuous splines. Correcting this problem won't solve the kingpin bolt and stop nut situation. P.S. WE DON'T WELD ON STEERING LINKAGE, BUD ! There are steering arms all over that won't require that ! The arm should be one piece, center to center !
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
    alanp561 likes this.
  16. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 81

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    Here are some pictures of the new geometry. It works so much better. I installed the stops and ended up grinding down the left turn stop just a bit to get equal turning radius.
    p1.JPG
    p10.JPG

    Thanks for the help. I will continue to look for a short pitman arm that will work for this application.

    Here are a few picts of the car.
    [/ATTACH] p4.JPG
    p3.JPG
    p4.JPG p5.JPG p6.JPG Thanks for all the help.
     

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  17. nobby
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 607

    nobby
    Member

    ooh, I don't think rag joint isn't a universal joint!!
    has to be in a straight line...…….
    its purpose is vibration reduction and not angle deflection correction?

    \/ this might be something to consider, i.e. you may not know that they exist....


    19-1 ratio
    1 1/16 sector - its not as he lists 1 1/8
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-1970-...592331?hash=item215ec0768b:g:MtEAAOSwbXddI5Fr
    bolt in - short stub , 3/4'' 36 splines
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Camaro-70-81-Manual-Steering-Pitman-Arm-71-72-73-74-75-76-77-78-79-80-Firebird/150469617192?fits=Model:Camaro&hash=item2308b02628:g:kk0AAOSw-wJaSSs3
    these are 6'' not seven, he has jumped one.
    oh the taper isn't early ford, but it is smaller, so can be re tapered to 7 degrees
    just a though, I think they may have roller bearings under the scector too, instead of bushings



    oh stethoscope - ht leads dancing on the exhaust
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2020
    pitman likes this.
  18. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 81

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    Thanks for the help. The rag joint elimination is on my list of repairs to make. I have a local hot rodder who is going to help me with this. I will look at your suggestions.
    Thanks
     
  19. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 81

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    Why are you suggesting that I use a 67-70 mustang manual steering box? I have one sitting on the shelf. Is it so the pitman arm you listed will fit it? I did not follow your post very well. Sorry and thanks for the help.
     
  20. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 81

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    I believe you are suggesting i change my steering box to the 67 mustang manual box (which i have on the shelf from a mustang restoration) and use the pitman arm shown. I think i understand.
     
  21. mike bowling
    Joined: Jan 1, 2013
    Posts: 3,547

    mike bowling
    Member

    You can use the stock arm, but it has to be cut and reversed to work. I use thes boxes all the time and have a certified welder finish the pitman arm welding once I tack weld it. The problem with these stock arms is that they’re tapered, splined and keyed to only go on one way.


    Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  22. mike bowling
    Joined: Jan 1, 2013
    Posts: 3,547

    mike bowling
    Member

  23. bchctybob
    Joined: Sep 18, 2011
    Posts: 2,746

    bchctybob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Nice car Ben! I’d be thrilled to have that one to start with. I’m glad your Pitman arm mods worked out well.
    If you rework the steering column it might be a good idea to incorporate a Borgeson style damper instead of the old rag joint.


    Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  24. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 81

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    How do you feel about this from Classic industries? I am not sure of the size, its just something i found.
    u joint.JPG
    K312852 - 1967-81 Camaro; 58-66 Impala/Full-size; 62-74 Nova - Stainless Steel Rag Joint - Flange X 1"- DD
    U-Joints are offered in stainless steel. This rag-joint flange is 1" - DD. Made in the USA.
     
  25. Marty Strode
    Joined: Apr 28, 2011
    Posts: 5,388

    Marty Strode
    Member

    Ben, I would switch to the later steering box, and purchase a new arm from TCI or P&J. I would not trust the welded arm, for your sake or others. The one shown is a TCI stainless, as I remember. That's a great car you have, be careful with it . IMG_1188.JPG
     
    alanp561 likes this.
  26. acme30
    Joined: Jun 13, 2011
    Posts: 177

    acme30
    Member
    from Australia

    Observation from Nobby - good eye there

    I am not sure the above question has been answered.

    The reason that the distance between the lower part of the spring and axle is a problem is because as you go down the road the spring will move up and down as you go over bumps in the road. As it moves the shackles pivot inboard and outboard. When they pivot outboard (as the axle pushes up or the chassis pushes down - depending on how you describe it) the spring will flatten out, rotating the shackle downwards/ outboard /to the right in your picture and it will touch on the axle. 1/8" clearance is not enough between the lowest point on the spring eye and the axle.

    I see the spring eyes on your axle are facing downwards - (not reversed). Many solve the issue you have and gain extra clearance by reversing the spring eye on the main leaf (Note reversing the spring eyes will lower the front by approx 1 inch). and it will move the eye away from the axle. Another alternative is to shorten the main spring leaf.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2020
  27. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 81

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    Thanks for the reply on the spring. I looked at this when i got the car, but assumed it was correct.

    I am beginning to think that the guy who built this car should have consulted you first.

    I am also beginning to think this should be a different thread, but i will keep going on this until someone says to start a new one.

    Here is my current set up.
    Spring1.JPG
    You are suggesting I flip this spring that says "flip this"? Or buy a shorter one. I understand how buying a shorter one would move the bottom of the spring away from the axle, but i dont see how flipping it will bring it away from the axle.
    Unless, you mean that i move the eye that holds the spring (that i drew a line to) , which is currently at 7 oclock, to 11 oclock or so?
    spring5.jpg
    Either way it will solve a problem i noticed early on which i show in my next picture. The clearance between my tie rod and the Radius rod is minimal. So by repairing the spring problem, i will gain some needed space here.
    spring3.jpg

    Again, I appreciate the help

    I am still sorting/sourcing out the parts i need to replace the 65-66 mustang steering box with a 67-70 mustang box.
     

    Attached Files:

  28. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 16,247

    alchemy
    Member

    I think some of those guys are a little confused. Or at least they are making you confused. If the spring currently doesn't hit the axle on full jounce, and you like how high the car sits, just leave the spring alone. By reversing the eyes of the current main leaf, which is usually DIY done by flipping the main leaf upside down and re-arching it the other way with a press, you will actually make the proximity of eye-to-axle a little bit worse as the arch grows a slight amount. To fix the maybe-imagined problem all together you will need a main leaf that is slightly (one or two inches or so) shorter than current. Then your shackles will sit slightly more vertical and they won't be close to the axle.

    But, all this moving of springs won't have anything to do with your tie rod to wishbone interference. That relationship will stay exactly the same. Putting a lowered spring in the mix will make the tie rod closer to the frame, but not the wishbone.
     
    anothercarguy and bchctybob like this.
  29. He's referring to the common practice of reversing the spring eye. image_128.jpg
     

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