While looking at BHT8BALLs photos note his front plate this is an example of his work which is of a very high standard he has the ability to make many of the traditional problems with banger motors look simple and he is building a lot of motors OBSERVE
Crankshaft is original factory "B" with my bolt on counterweights, the round "wheels" are trimmed to reduce the amount of counterweighting necessary. The oil slinger is machined off and that area welded up to the flywheel bolt holes, ruff machined, peened with an air hammer, machined again and then ground with the rest of the bearings. The counterbore on the flywheel side was also welded, preventative measures to keep the flywheel flange on the crank. The weights were calculated to equalize the vertical & horizontal shake at 5000 rpm. Pics are of the weights & a modified crank before the weights are bolted on.
Beautiful work!!!! What purpose do the two longitudinal holes in the counterweights serve? Tooling? Looks like they intersect the two outside cap screw holes. Herb
Curious as to how the balance is calculated? Is the rod/piston wt or % in this calculation? That is some great work, keep the pictures coming.
I use the modified early flathead V 8 pumps in my engines. The early ones are known as the long pumps and locate as low as a stock pump. They are internally regulated to produce 80 Lb. but lighter 50 Lb springs are available. I made up a simple setup to check the pressure as the first one I purchased had the stock spring in it and pegged the needle. If you purchase # 5 in the "How to Restore Your model A " series from the Restorer Magazine you will find an article by Urb Stair on pressurizing the oiling system in the model A block. In this article he describes modifying and adapting a SBC oil pump. His article caused quite a bit of twisted underwear as he advocates the use of copper tubing and also used epoxy to mount the pump. I think he ran 2 "Great races" in his coupe. He knew his stuff!
I worked with an automotive engineer who does this for a living, he created a spread sheet and input the dimensions of an "A" block & crank as well as the weights of the big & little ends of the rod and the piston with pin & rings. If only one cyl. is calculated the horizontal shake would be greater than the vertical which would induce more flexing of the crank and bell-mouthing of the bearings. Flexing increases the friction and robs power and promotes the flywheel flange to part company with the crank. The flywheel is acting as a gyro and doesn't want to change direction with the flexing, as the stock crank has next to zero fillet radius next to the flange it's easy to start a crack. This spread sheet is like scientific trial& error, in that you start with a calculation based on % and then run the calculation thru the rpm range getting a print out of the forces, within a few trials it will tell you when you've reached equal vertical & horizontal forces. It also prints out a nice graph but so far I can't get it to print or I would show you what it looks like. To shake a approximate 500 lb. engine like a stock "A" the forces are quite large, at 5000 rpm. the force of the counterweight is about 5000 lbs. Each cyl. needs to be balanced as close to inline with the rod as possible but still is affected by the next cy. 180 deg. opposite. The goal is to minimize the flexing which we fell when operating the car as vibration.
once again it is important to note the lack of fillet radius next to the flange this is a major cause of crankshafts breaking as well as other reasonsBHT8BALL has explained great information
I was curious as to whether or not the piston acceleration differences at TDC vs BDC play into the calculation. With such long rods it may not be too much of an influence. I have seen many who do not thrust the crank on the center main as it can pinch when the crank is flexing. Better to just pony up and go 5 journals. On to another subject, '39 trans vs T10 for a Model A banger. Pops is getting a new motor and wants to drive more, which is better, '39 or T10? More importantly, why? I've noticed some T10 torktube stuff around. Thanks, J Ugh, maybe I have this incorrect, is T5 from S10 pickup, not T10 trans? Found it
The T-5 is from the S-10. I run the T-5 in my car. I love it because the gear ratios are closer together. When driving around town I can keep up with traffic. When driving in the hills, I can run a gear that keeps it in the power band and not lug it. Here is the closed drive line adapter that I make:
Not much of a contest The T5 is a 5 speed with 5 Th. as an overdrive. CDO's adapter simplifies the installation. Other installation kits with out torquetube sometimes have brake problems if you use original mechanical brakes 39 is a 3 speed and can be easily installed with an adapter kit. It was the trans of choice before the overdrive trans . Of course the overdrive trans will require more beans to be practical. If the engine is close to stock overdrive only good on dead flat or down hill.
The holes in the counterweights make a whistling noise when running so other cars can tell you're passing them, they also mount the weights to the tooling fixture when milling the profile, I made vise jaws with a dowel that fits in them when drilling & counterboring the attachment holes. By using that location less mass is removed from the part. Keen eye there!
Do you have any whistling at this time? Seriously, do you have any performance results? Having broken a couple of crankshafts in the past I'm interested in any improvements. After breaking the first I called Jay Steele and when I told him it was broken he asked me if it was at #4 which it was, as was the second. Of course these were counter balanced A cranks. He told me that in his experience most of the cranks seemed to break at #4 rod throw. This may be apples and oranges as it seems to me that the more horses/torque you develop the more strain you put on the flange. Does your crank design engineering call for or take into consideration the use of a dampener? My engine with the stroker crank developed a noise at the Antique Nationals this year and if I find it is the crank I'm considering one of the new A cranks. They are pricey but I'm selling some of my treasures/junk "own a piece of history" type stuff to offset the cost. I think we will have to run 4000 RPM's at a minimum. I know the B/C crank in the 2 port is capable. Or was. I have retired that engine in favor of a Winfield flathead.
Bill, some thoughts on your questions, I highly recommend a damper whether it's for racing or street. Most American cars came with them from about 1949 on, some in the '30's. Proper size counterweights minimize the flexing & the damper minimizes the torsional twisting. My guess is that breaking the crank at #4 would be caused by torsional loads. In spite of my recommending a damper to my customers some do not want them, weather it's cost or they think since it didn't come with it from the factory it's not needed. As you well know they also didn't come with Winfield heads or +.125 bore. The customers logic isn't consistent. Anything that increases the torque will twist the crank more, Years ago in my teens we had a loaner stock '29 RPU that broke a crank at #4 right after putting $3.00 worth of gas in it, we pushed it home and drained the gas out. Marcel D'auvignon that runs his '30 yellow & black coupe at all the hill climbs has dampers on his engines & so far with great success. The track roadster in the pic has my counterweighted "B" crank and damper, it has run at Willow Springs, Santa Maria, & this weekend will run at Hanford. Not trying to be negative but we gamble every time we run these old engines. When they don't break they are a lot of fun. Taylor's sells a nice damper that fits a regular A setup.
I had a counter balanced A crank break with a set of REM Al rods, made a mess of 1 rod I have used the dampener as supplied by Taylor Engine on my last 3 engines. I have one on the stroker but just haven't taken the time to pull it down to find the noise. May not make it to the 66 hillclimb. Give the overheads a break, we were just .567 second slower than the 4 ports last year with a first time driver.
Bill again, check to see that the damper bolt is still tight, if it isn't it could make a knocking noise. I tighten mine to 125 lbs. Or, if you have an aluminum flywheel it could have come loose. Had that problem real bad with a 322 cu. in. GMC in a dragster. Check with Phil Farber, he needed another REM rod and was able to get one, his cell is 805 440 7555, cheers, Pat
Bob was still around when I needed the rod. Earlier he had told me he was stuck with too many of the A rods and was probably going to have to discount them to get rid of them. Cost me $160 for 1 rod I guess he forgot. He also told me that used the same overall dimensions on the A as the B. I might make a set of B rods. I have steel bushings in my Al flywheels. The Al flywheels from Bob (REM) seemed to be soft. I have a "Forged" 11.5 LB. that was my original, it looked like it had been run loose when I got it. so I have , as a matter of course, bushed the mounting holes on all my Al flywheels, both of them. I'm planning on pulling the starter and poking and prying around. I ran the 11.5 Al flywheel on my 2 port. Light car, second gear starts at the hillclimbs, didn't know you weren't supposed to be able do that.
Hey guys, just got my first banger. I have a question. When i let the clutch out, it feels like the motor shifts in the mounts, causing the clutch to release too quickly. Almost a dump feeling. Im gonna look it over tomorrow, but what should i look for? Im thinking loose mounts, but ill be honest when i say im not sure how they mount in.
Since the clutch pedal, and all the linkage, is mounted on the bell housing, it is more likely the throwout bearing sticking on the transmission input shaft sleeve. Take the little tin cover off the top of the bell housing and have a look. Herb
The rubber on the rear mounts could be all fagged out The best place for info on stock mount would be ford barn I good sign the rubber is junk the tranny will be sagging and will be real close to your brake cross shaft I have seen I car when you pressed the brake the engine would lift the mounts were so bad Good luck
Not a banger, so OT, but I took a look at your Nash project--super work! My first car was a '48 600 Broughm. Two things about the car I remember- the tank held 22 gallons, and back in the day the service station attendant pumped the gas. When they got to the 17-18 gallon point, they started looking around to see if they were pumping it on to the ground somehow. The other was that damn waterpump mounted on the side of the block--good for about 15K before it would start to leak. Reason that I moved on to something else--then found that the pump off a Rambler (same flathead six)- which mounted up where a waterpump should- was a bolt on replacement. Herb
I use ARP 12 point bolts with loctite. You have to specify the bolts you want as there are different lengths and auto parts clerks don't really care. To them a flywheel bolt is a flywheel bolt. I had a number for flathead V8 bolts but they substituted a Mopar number that hit the seal adapter. Just a caution. The ARP bolts are full .437 diameter and the flywheel registers on them for better support IMO. Another word of caution, in my experience some AL flywheels, REM as an example, will not clear the 3/4 socket so you must cut a slight radial relief at each bolt location.
"Back in the day"('40s/early 50's) what would guys commonly use for a trans and rearend behind a hopped up banger in a model A? Also, would anybody have bothered building a full-fendered Model A tudor in the early days of hot rodding? Sorry, these questions are not particularly technical. I'm new to the banger portion of the hot rod world and am as yet trying to pick a definite direction for a couple of potential builds. Thanks J
Most ran the A rear end, at least at first. A rear ends were $10 to $15 in local junk yards. Serious racers used early V8 rear ends. But others developed ways to beef up the A rear end. Brackets for the spring were welded on the V8 rear ends or fabricated from plate and bolted on the backside of the backing plate mounting flange. I made a fixture that locates the welded on bracket for rear springs that maintains the correct spacing for the A rear spring. Their are some weld on brackets on the market now but the ones for T buckets position the spring too high IMO. The average hot rodder learned how to shift the A transmission and it was used in quite a few cars. The popular transmission swap was what is known as the 39 transmission but all years of flathead V 8 transmissions were used with their synchromesh design. This was an easy swap after the Al transmission adapters came on the market making it a bolt in conversion. Model B's transmissions were used and most replaced the gears with later V8 gears. The B rear end had the same weak points as an A
Bill covered the transmission question, so Ill take a shot at the Tudor and fenders questions. Ive spoken to several guys who were driving Model As in the 1950s (pretty much after the bangers heyday, and they werent necessarily hot rodders, just poor kids driving what they could afford), and they told of taking sedans to the dump, unbolting the sedan body, and leaving with a roadster or sport coupe body attached. Sedans just werent done if one could avoid it. So what? If you like your sedan, or need it because of your family, keep it. Im sure there was at least one done. Ive often played with the idea of doing a T coupe or sedan in the style of Multy Aldrichs roadster. And, on the other hand, in the pre-war era, Im not so sure roadsters were as easily available for nothing, since they were still on the road with their first and second owners! On the subject of fenders, when you look at the old pictures on the dry lakes its really common to see Model As still wearing their splash aprons (a lot of them look like Deuce frames at a glance, but look again). Guys would run fenders during the week, then take them off for racing, but since the body has to be raised to get the splash aprons off, they were left on. So theres definitely precedent for street-driven hot rods with fenders in the 1940s and earlier. Just everyone took their fenders off for the races, and thats where the photos were taken. -Dave
Around here, Minnesota, coupes where the body of choice. Most of the roadster bodys where gobbled up by the dirt track guys. Every once in a while you could find a roadster or coupe body out behind the barn and the chassis from it was under a hay rack. It wasn't til the late '60's before sedans where accepted as rod fodder, coupe bodies where gettin' hard to find by then and what was available went to strip use. As for transmissions, a banger had an A trans or a v8 if the motor was from a dirt car. That's where most of the banger action was around here. There was a guy around the Twin Cities that made conversions for a Cad/LaSalle trans for A's and B's for quite a while but they where pretty spendy. I can remember seeing a '29 tudor and a '31 4 door sittin' in the very back row at the local Chev dealer's used car lot in '63 for $40 a piece. A lot of the strret jobs here where fenderless. Most where down and dirty. Ya took a coupe stripped the fenders and hood off and cut the splash apron as close to the body as ya could ... instant highboy. Ron
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