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History So, you think this is not Traditional?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by BrerHair, Jan 6, 2016.

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  1. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 3,993

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    Don't you understand , "outside the box " thinking is not allowed here , the only thing that flies here is regurgitating the same thing , over and over , ad nauseum ...
    dave
     
    H380 and gimpyshotrods like this.
  2. the truck I built in the late 60's avatar is not considered traditional
    as for I put disc brakes on it later in its life sad I am to cheep to spend the$ for bias ply tires
    its was a daily driver
    283 (292) 4sp except front brakes newest pat is 1964
     
  3. 117harv
    Joined: Nov 12, 2009
    Posts: 6,590

    117harv
    Member

    If this is how you feel, and I think it is as I don't detect sarcasm, why waste your time visiting??
     
    gwhite, Stogy and lurker mick like this.
  4. Actually a jalopy is a hot rod, the use of the term has morphed, and has had differences in use depending on which neighborhood you live in.

    Example, in "Happy Days" ( we all think that the '50s was either happy days or leave it to beaver right?) the Fonz called someone sweet t roadster a jalopy. Some of the fellas here throw a jalopy and a rat rod in the same box, my old man who was building before the war called any beat around car a jalopy. If it was hot rodded but was someone's daily, lacked the refinement of a show car it was a jalopy, or if it was not a race car it was a jalopy. So to me a jalopy is what my generation called a beater.

    I think that there is something that maybe we have not touched on, a traditional hot rod is not a 1-800-hotrod. That does not mean that every part on it needs to be hand formed or a modified original, but it should not be built from a catalog. This is not to say that some of our pieces are not going to be ordered new or even repop, but the car itself should not be ordered piece by piece from this catalog or that.
     
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  5. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 3,993

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    I enjoy old cars , I feel I have something to offer in reference to fabrication problems as well as engine problems . I have over 50 years experience w/ both . The fact that I don't give a shit whether it's trad. or not has no bearing on those topics. I think many on here are very narrow-minded and since many use magazine articles , heresay and "romanticized notions" about how it was vs. having actually experienced it , they're mostly full of it [and themselves]. These kind of discussions drive me up a wall , but like car crashes , I can't always look away.
    dave
     
    H380 likes this.
  6. A lot of us have been around a long time and our memories of the way that things were are different depending on where we were and how we came up I think. Then of course memory is subject to the rememberer.
     
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  7. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 2,631

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'm kind of a straight line, square corner kind of person you know like things well defined not unlike the guys that wanted prints and engineering drawings that make sense. I can recall as a kiddo (50's and 60's) seeing the brand new model year car made Custom. It would have hints of what the car had begun life as but so much more curved line and rounded corner, not unlike the young woman at the first teen dance that had previously been that skinny, freckle faced, knocked kneed, tom boy. Yes, some pull it off better than others. Then there was the sound up the street of someone, open pipe, hammer down hauling ass my way. Run to the curb and see the hot rod go by. It was a statement of beauty of a different kind, one of performance and speed or something that sounded like it was. Everyone I knew that was in the rod scene was pushing the envelope and was rebellious or at least non conforming. They made their custom statement that way and that's the girl you really wanted to go out with....
    Thank heavens for the 'straight line, square corner' focus of this place.
    But even a better is that the participants are the kind of folks that push the envelope and 'know it when they see it'

    That is what makes it work
     
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  8. Another good point. I'm always more than a bit puzzled by the implied elitism when the discussion about reproduction parts comes up, particularly bodies, i.e. steel vs fiberglass. Steel is 'considered' traditional, but the real key word is 'reproduction'. Neither is original, it's simply easier to disguise the fact with steel. Aftermarket repos of any/all parts have been both a blessing and a curse; a blessing because it's relieved us from having to chase after a ever-shrinking OEM parts supply (or at least those of us with limited finances or access to these parts) but has also promoted a 'sameness' in a lot of builds. I wonder how many 'traditional' cars ended up the way they did because the builder couldn't find what he needed and substituted a 'at hand' part that worked. But I do agree with beaner, doing this with just 1-800 numbers definitely removes some 'flavor' from a build.

    Well, that's not really a fair statement. Sure, there's some here that take a hard-line approach but there's more than a few cars/projects that don't fit that category. It's just where that line is drawn is what creates the friction.

    I do have a question. Being a somewhat recent arrival here (2 1/2 years), I watched with interest when Ryan first 'opened' the door for more diversity when he split out the two 'traditional' forums, then sorta closed the door with an editorial reiterating the focus would be on 'traditional' cars. But after all that, the 'open' forum remained. So is the main problem that some are posting to the 'wrong' forum, or is it that the same 'rules' should be applied across ALL forums? Obviously some feel that it should be the latter, but the 'rules' are murky (and deliberately so IMO). What's interesting is there is a clear cut-off for vehicles (1964, with some relaxing), but none for parts (with later engines/drivelines being specifically allowed), only that 'high tech' stuff is not allowed like electronics, billet, etc. So I think that much of the 'hard core' line is simply opinion... and everyone is allowed that... LOL.
     
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  9. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 23,078

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I believe this is absolutely not true. Innovation based on past methods of mechanical construction flourish here. There are countless build threads both by self taught and skills trained craftsmen/women.
    On top of this the Board shares countless stories of greatness in the hobby/business of going fast.
    Many here build their vehicles without a thread but possess equal skills. One has only to look back at mechanical technology from the period the HAMB encompasses.
    Trains, ships, aircraft, automobiles, all things mechanical all existed in highly complex mechanical degrees of which the technology could be funneled down to the relatively simple hotrod or custom and in many different ways continues to this day.
    Mechanical innovation was/is also the product of many crafty thinkers on top of commercial technologies. So the moral of the story here is an aviation/auto or other skill set_engineer/mechanic/or similarly inclined (past or present) might design a very sophisticated period hotrod and it would only be embraced as it should be. It is also to be noted that the most primitive of hotrods and customs are equally interesting in their own way.
    This is what makes this place what it is...fuel burning period creativity. Bring it on. I will never see it all but is fun gleaning and enjoying what others have to share and offer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
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  10. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,587

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    Some of you whom I respect and recognize as true to form are really thinking too deep on the topic. I've seen spirit, tradition, performance, jalopy, blah, blah, blah, fuckin blah...! Don't be insulted, don't take that as drama or derailment, rather take it as the loud bastard on the milk crate in the shop, where we all are, doing an almost singular thing in an electronic and plural world. We've gathered in a place that enhances what we do greater than any of the us could imagine, and yet still have the FUN that only that rebellious hoodlum and his pals have always had. This time frame happens to represent a heyday and maintains a look or a vibe beyond words or borders or boxes. Fuckin eh, even entire generations. Fun. Fast. Individual. Clearly NOT 1-800 STREET ROD like Beaner observed. That's as serious as I want to get about it, and shit maybe that's too much too.
     
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  11. jetnow1
    Joined: Jan 30, 2008
    Posts: 1,969

    jetnow1
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from CT
    1. A-D Truckers

    Many feel the muscle car era began with the 64 Gto because Pontiac put the pig car engine into a mid size car
    from the factory. Buick put its big car engine into the mid size Century in 1939, creating what was known as
    a gentlemans hot rod. Perhaps it should be considered the beginning of the muscle car. Personally I feel that
    the mid 50's Chevy power pack option was the beginning of the end for backyard hot rodding, you could buy
    an affordable car that would run with most hot rods.
     
  12. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 3,886

    denis4x4
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Colorado

    Somebody smarter than me should find the interview that a couple of guys in Long Beach did with Ryan and post it. Quite frankly, he comes across much better verbally as to the why's and where fore's of how the HAMB came about.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
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  13. Stogy
    Joined: Feb 10, 2007
    Posts: 23,078

    Stogy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
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  14. BrerHair
    Joined: Jan 30, 2007
    Posts: 4,786

    BrerHair
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I think the Mods do a great job of moving a thread off one of the traditional forums and either deleting it or, more likely, moving it to General Discussion. Don't think this is much of an issue. And yes, I think the rules should apply across all forums, with the understanding that there is a ton of wiggle room in General Discussion under the Inspiration tagline.

     
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  15. BrerHair
    Joined: Jan 30, 2007
    Posts: 4,786

    BrerHair
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Absolutely. All you have to do is check out cactus1's Levee Leveler thread to see a young, talented guy staying true to a traditional period but improvising beautifully and creatively. One of many examples.
     
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  16. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,856

    Mike51Merc
    Member

  17. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 4,419

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    The way I see it, tradition is first and foremost a way of imparting knowledge. It is a mechanism for learning from each other over time. It's going on all the time: one of the most basic things the HAMB does it to make tradition, especially through the tech threads.

    Be it common or exceptional, every actual historical build arose out of a dream that someone had. Some achieved their vision; others fell far short. Some dreams simply came out of wanting to answer friends' and neighbours' builds; others responded to published builds; others to inspirations outside the realm of hot-rodding, like historic racers and coachbuilt classics; and some grew out of first principles and original future visions. But all these dreams were constituted from technological understandings which came out of traditions. You could say that the traditional technological understanding as of the time of the build was the language in which the dream was dreamt.

    To me, the question of traditional or not revolves around, does a build grow out of a dream someone could have dreamt in 1965? Or 1957? Or 1946? Or 1935? Or whatever. It's not the body nor the parts, nor even looks or "flavour"; it's the way of thinking.
     
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  18. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,587

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    I respectfully disagree Ned. As off as it may seem and as "boxed in" as something being done old school may look, at the end of the day the whole thing ends up being restoration. Where "restoration" as a practice or even a business differs is that any rule that exists is blurred heavily, not focused completely on specific things like fasteners, trims, even colors to a vague degree. Stuffing an LS1-2-3-whatever into a perfectly customized 54 Chevy H.T is emphatically NOT restoration though. Might as well add digital gauges and "DUBs" to it because it no longer respects tradition. It doesn't insult it either. What is wrong with the car mentioned is when it's owner/builder gets all King Kong about how traditional his 54 Chevy custom is. If it had a 70s 350 SBC dressed out in finned aluminum and sporting an early intake and tri-power, well this guy would give it a pass. After all, it's not like the traditionally focused shows pull out displacement checking equipment or record casting numbers. That engine "fits" a look, respects tradition, and unless there were obvious new parts showing, no foul. The LS user can't even say "...had it laying around, just like the old days..." because that new engine didn't exist. Now here's where it gets real blurry. TRJ did a feature on the a Ford exec's Deuce roadster that was built with a notable influence of early INDY-styled racers/hot rods. It had a later model DOHC Ford in it too, but the trickery exercised to maintain a traditional look to it was over the top, very creative, gave a level of respect to tradition that few have done in recent years. I'd give that one almost a full pass. Maybe like a touchdown minus the field goal? At a minimum, you knew it when you saw it, but sadly that engine/trans combo didn't exist. As blurry as it gets but still worthy, yes? You may know the car but I won't dig up pictures and post it because it might go against the grain on the board's foundation. Simply put, there's more to it than intangible ideas or practices.
     
  19. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,829

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

    Some HAMB historical perspective, as remembered by this Mod on vacation...

    For years we fought tooth and nail against any written rules, because once they are written down you have to stick to them.

    We asked Members to get a feel for the Board, and keep the posting to the spirit of the place
    And we'd have wonderfully quirky cars like Purple's little Jap car, and other stuff that wouldn't fly today.

    It all started in the Classifieds, when a long time Member tried to peddle all his latemodel inventory, and it came to a head with a Mustang he was trying to sell.

    After that, there still wasn't a cut off date on the main board for years.
    Which meant a lot of extra work for us Mods, but we were happy to do it.

    But as much as we like to think we are all rebels, most of us cant live without finely defined rules and guidelines.
    So the issue can be debated in excruciating detail...
    Specially by people who just had something Deleted, and now want to point out all the other stuff they think doesn't fit.

    The board is much more focused now.
    which is good.

    But we also lost something in the process.

    Which, to me, is why Threads like this one are never productive.
     
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  20. Mr Shapes,
    long time no speak man. how are ya? I hope you are enjoying your time off.

    I think that threads like this give people a chance to voice their opinion or vent in a forum that would not normally be acceptable. it also gives us all a chance to see how ignorant we really are, of course that comes later.

    I have managed to stumble across some of the old threads and seen some of the things I have posted and said, "Daaaaammmn I don't believe you said that brother." If nothing else if we are willing to think just a little bit it gives us all a chance to evaluate what ever it is that we think we believe.\

    But back to my original intent here after the rabbit trail and before I go down the hole.

    What's going on with you my friend, long time no speak.
     
  21. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,829

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

    I'm good, 'Beaner.

    Good to see you are still doing your thing, man... :)
     
  22. I'm not smart enough to quit. ;)
     
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  23. Raiman1959
    Joined: May 2, 2014
    Posts: 1,427

    Raiman1959

    Lots of ideals and implications on this thread....as time goes on, it's the inevitable ''old vs. new'' that is causing the 'evolving' of car builds as it will always do, and has in the past, as we move farther away from the "original" hot rod notions. Some of us really adhere to the 'originality' aspect of a termed ''hot rod''...while other reach out towards the more ''modern'' interpretation and concept. I would like to think that the 'individual' of 'today' has the final decision, and coins the term 'hot rod' in their interpretation. While cars later than 65' are to be respected, ....it is an era into the beginning of 'muscle car' focus (in general terms)....and 'hot rod' kept it's identity mostly to the original intent and identity to nostalgic ideals before that. I personally think a 1965' cut off is fine. After 1965, a 'new and different' era was starting, and combining the two didn't seem to 'fit' as it used to in 40's-50's outlooks. Maybe I'm too old-fashioned, but I just see the two era's somewhat 'different' to each other....neither any better or worse than the other, but just ''different'' and enjoyed along their own lines. I prefer nostalgia, and focus on that aspect....but I do know that times do change, and although I don't usually move with those times, ...I recognize that peoples interpretations 'do' change. What is 'traditional' to them, is not necessarily traditional to me....but a 'set year' would keep it contained somewhat to "one aspect" of nostalgia hot-rodding ....just a thought!:oops:----Ray
     
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  24. BrerHair
    Joined: Jan 30, 2007
    Posts: 4,786

    BrerHair
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Yes it can. Maybe we have heard enough on this subject, for this "rules refresher", I don't know. Trying to define "traditional hot rod" does seem to be difficult, it is something of a moving target (perspective, memory, intention, many of the things that have been mentioned.) What I would like to repeat is just how incredibly important it is to hot rodding, to have some kind of definition, however elusive and fuzzy it might be.
    For my money, I am content to leave it as "You know it when you see it" (and not everyone gets it.)

     
    Stogy likes this.
  25. It's not a matter of stuffy - it's a matter of the basic ground rules, if your shit don't fit, it's gone. That doesn't make it "Stuffy", it means you don't get the basic rules and want to join Little league and play football

    I think you would be surprised (from your comments) on how nice a lot of the stuff really was back then. Was it all? NO. But a certain faction was, just like today. Does some stuff get over restored? absolutely but fresh build Hot Rods are Restorations in the traditional (pun intended) sense of the word, so unless you are "restoring" an actual car that was built in the era, I really don't think you can make it "Too Nice" - it just represents a different segment of what did happen, a rarer segment for sure.

    I have to say you are way out of line on this one. There were tons of Glass T's built before '65 and they are as traditional as any other aspect of the hobby.
     
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  26. 39 Ford
    Joined: Jan 22, 2006
    Posts: 1,558

    39 Ford
    Member

    I have had my 39 coupe for a full 50 years now. Saved it from a crusher. I am the only one who can say if things on it are traditional or not. It's MY car done my way. I could care less about peer pressure or other people's options including Ryan's.
     
  27. low-n-slo54
    Joined: Jul 25, 2009
    Posts: 1,920

    low-n-slo54
    Member

    Not if you listen to how a lot of people talk on here. You know the "If it's not steel, it's not real" crowd. They're usually the one who crow the loudest against them being traditional.
     
  28. Traditional, traditional. What does that word mean etymologically or in vibe?
    I think everyone is hung up on that word. And I think it's getting in the way.
    My take on this place is that it is for the way hot rods and customs were built prior to 1965.
    Pick a period, be as accurate as you want to be or at least capture the essence, but as long as it's in the manner of pre 1965 it's OK.
    Tradition is just a word and possibly not helpful.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2016
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  29. Dooley
    Joined: May 29, 2002
    Posts: 2,779

    Dooley
    Member
    from Buffalo NY

    My car was built in the early 60's late 50's
    not much had changed, except a newer sbc , it had a 265 then


    I added a few safety things that I wanted. It's not considered trad by the board. that's cool, I didn't re build it for the board.
    Does not mean that I don't like it here. folks need to separate the 2 things..

    only concern is there are times I feel that the mentality is going towards the tweed billet 1-800 perfect door gaps etc that re energized the trad thing in the late 80's early 90's some folks need all cars to fit their narrow focus or their not good...kinda like a hot rod version of animal farm the book
     
  30. ..........................Please explain how that mentality re-energized the traditional thing. You lost me with that. :confused:
     
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