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Technical So....I'm learning a little about tires

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by trollst, May 1, 2020.

  1. 03GMCSonoma
    Joined: Jan 15, 2011
    Posts: 221

    03GMCSonoma
    Member

    Do you know anyone with a set of tires on their car/truck that would fit yours? Try mounting their tires on your truck to see if the vibration goes away. This would/should eliminate your tires as the cause of the vibration.
    Have you put your truck on a hoist and run it up to vibration speed? If it vibrates you have eliminated the front end components because there is no movement in the steering and the front wheels. The only components moving are the drive shaft and the rear wheels. If it doesn't vibrate, you have eliminated your drive shaft and rear tires. While it is up in the air and running and it is vibrating, you should be able to see something that is not right. My $.02.
     
  2. it’s really difficult to describe frequency verbally. Need a graph or visual.

    Does it shake/vibrate like this


    more movement or less ?
    Faster or slower?
     
  3. trollst
    Joined: Jan 27, 2012
    Posts: 1,724

    trollst
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Steve, thats exactly what happens, in that exact way, and the shake is that minor, two hands on the wheel dampen it enough to not be a problem. 03, I've done all the above, its not that I have a vibration, its that I've spent a lot of years chasing it to no avail. The only thing not changed or thought about is the front rotors, when I bought them, the whole mustang II thing was just taking steam, and the rotors were aftermarket, machined for five studs. Who knows where they were sourced from, and because they aren't expensive, I'll change them cause thats all thats left.
    I know this truck well, not only did I build every nut and bolt in it, I've had it apart countless times searching for this issue, Two complete front end checks and realignments, two machined driveshafts, two complete rear end assemblies, two sets of rear springs and shocks, four sets of tires, three sets of wheels, everything but new rotors. I'll kill myself if its a hundred dollar fix, the whole point of this thread, to teach what I've done and learned. Stay tuned, I live in a small town, may have to go to the big town to get them.
     
  4. trollst
    Joined: Jan 27, 2012
    Posts: 1,724

    trollst
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    By the way.....BALANCING BEADS, not the cure all, used in big trucks, they do work. SORTA. Takes a couple miles at speed for them to find the sweet spot in the tire, until you go around a sharp corner (like we don't have many of those here in BC), and the beads move in the tire, need more time to reset. Although they work, they're not a good choice for any of us.
     
    pwmcx95 likes this.
  5. proartguy
    Joined: Apr 13, 2009
    Posts: 439

    proartguy
    Member
    from Sparks, NV

    Not to hijack the thread, but the problems Trollst has are so similar to mine it is amazing, as well as the inventory of replaced parts.

    I did have the wheels spun balanced on the car - two different sets of tires and new wheels. No change. The first time the rotors seemed to be drilled off center, so new rotors. No warpage with either set. No change. Check the rear axle flange and studs (Moser axles) - no problem.

    To address some of the other suggestions. The steering rack seemed ok, but I put in a new Flaming River rack just to eliminate that possibility. The front end was rebuilt with Moog parts. No change. A couple of driveshafts including a costly aluminum version. Three sets of tires and wheels. Checked all angles in driveline and narrowed the rear end so the drive line was centered to the transmission.

    Tried other things too, like Fluid-damper harmonic balancer and different torque converter, new motor mounts, timing. I have been told that some 350 small blocks vibrate and this one does at 1100 and 2200 rpm and 2200 rpm is the speed where the shaky wheel starts. I understand there are always harmonics in V8 engines and OEM engineers work hard to minimize them. One shop thought I should change engines, but the steering wheel shake continues if taken out of gear at speed so it seems chassis related to me.

    When installed, the front end geometry was duplicated by measuring a stock MII ft end and the frame was set up on a surface table. The crossmember was from Innovative Rod Shop - circa 1990, stock strut rod design using oem control arms, spindles and struts. I would not do that style again as the strut mount stresses the ‘37 Chev. frame too much. I wonder if the strut rod design is part of the problem as endless part replacements have done little to solve the problem. The Chassis Engineering bolt-in front end has a triangulated center brace between the crossmember and the strut rod mounts and I wonder if this may be a solution.

    In the over twenty years of dinking with this no one has figured it out including three front end shops, several mechanics, tire stores, driveline and gear specialist, etc., and makes me wonder if there is an inherent chassis design problem. I would love to be able to take it to someone who could fix it, but have not found anyone in my area.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2020
    nunattax and trollst like this.
  6. roadsterdonpat32
    Joined: Apr 16, 2008
    Posts: 73

    roadsterdonpat32
    Member

    I changed 3 sets of rotors that were no good , like I said I bought some from ECI American made. The bad ones were made in Mexico. Lugs were not concentric.
     
    trollst likes this.
  7. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 1,944

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    They did away with the balancing on the vehicle a long time ago because of weights leaving the wheel and the liability associated with that. And the computer doesn't tell you the corrective weight and placement
     
    trollst likes this.
  8. trollst
    Joined: Jan 27, 2012
    Posts: 1,724

    trollst
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    So.....I ordered them from the old car center, speedway rotors, $55 apiece, but gotta wait a couple weeks, seems the bug has slowed down everything, so, getting shit up here to the frozen great white north is a waiting game. I'll post the results when it comes time. LeRoy.
     
    Blue One likes this.
  9. Fortunateson
    Joined: Apr 30, 2012
    Posts: 3,112

    Fortunateson
    Member

    Good luck. These kind of things can be very annoying over time especially with all the attempts you've made at correcting things.
     
    Blue One and trollst like this.
  10. rockable
    Joined: Dec 21, 2009
    Posts: 2,906

    rockable
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I have had 3 sets of brake drums that were out of balance. Now, I put them on a bubble balance to check them before I install them. You could maybe remove your inner wheel bearings and do that.
     
    trollst likes this.
  11. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,345

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    Fwiw ,
    The factory front end geometry with dropped spindles has been disturbed.
    Once tires get cupped a bit , the results cant always be negated..
    At this point a steering damper is a wonderful invention...
     
  12. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 15,515

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    A steering damper on a rack?
     
  13. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 2,345

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    Why not ?
     
  14. trollst
    Joined: Jan 27, 2012
    Posts: 1,724

    trollst
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Tires are brand new, still got blue on the sidewalls. DSC07698.JPG
     
  15. roadsterdonpat32
    Joined: Apr 16, 2008
    Posts: 73

    roadsterdonpat32
    Member

    Just because it is new does not make it good.
     
    john worden and nunattax like this.
  16. ECI is noted for quality products. Ralph has retired, and Marcus, his long time shop foreman is the new owner.
     
  17. nunattax
    Joined: Jan 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,247

    nunattax
    Member

    if they are 15 inch rims in the photo wouldn't 16 inch rims give you an extra 1/2 inch clearance there and room for stick on balance weights just a thought.
     
  18. trollst
    Joined: Jan 27, 2012
    Posts: 1,724

    trollst
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The balance weights are stick on, in the center of the wheel, the inside rim has clip on weights, no issue. 16 inch rims would kill the look of the truck, nothing hot rod about it, 15's work fine. DSC07702.JPG
     
  19. nunattax
    Joined: Jan 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,247

    nunattax
    Member

    gotya clear in the photo
     
  20. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 26,891

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Someone in your area still has to have an old Hunter spin balancer like this Hunter 106 that I have. Actually I have two because the second on came with a strobe balancer that I wanted.

    [​IMG]
    Even if they don't put the balancer part on the wheel they can spin the tire up and you can see if there is any vibration from the whole, rotor and wheel assembly. I had a brand new drum come from the parts house a few years ago that was so far out of balance from the factory that it wasn't usable.
     
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  21. bschwoeble
    Joined: Oct 20, 2008
    Posts: 551

    bschwoeble
    Member

    Very interesting. Similar problem. No problems until I put dropped spindles on car. Just recently I decided to change the rack bushings. I was expecting to have to use a fork to separate the tie rod ends. To my surprise, all it took to separate, was a good tap with a brass punch and hammer. Now I'm wondering if there isn't a slight amount of play in the tapered fit.
     
  22. Just a "LITTLE" outside the scrub.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  23. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,520

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    Wow that’s brilliant. :rolleyes: Let’s buy some new tires and then have some rubber removed from them so they wear out sooner and then we have to buy more new tires :rolleyes:

    We’re talking modern tires here not the old stuff. :D
     
  24. 026344E7-463C-48F5-9C21-A963E7DB67C8.jpeg
    going to a smaller tire
    6BDABBDB-5B7B-4E1A-8BDD-DF40EF303973.jpeg

    Drop spindles are even more dramatic and then add in some offset of a deep rim with shallow backspace,,,

    then you have this

    12” represent 24” tire shown with zero offset rim.
    958233FF-C2F1-442F-8EC5-FB243975485C.jpeg
     

    Attached Files:

    Penetrator likes this.
  25. proartguy
    Joined: Apr 13, 2009
    Posts: 439

    proartguy
    Member
    from Sparks, NV

    31 vicky - can you explain how the scrub radius can affect steering wheel shake/vibration? I would love to find that I have some geometry problem which causes or adds to the problem.

    My ‘37 has all stock Ford parts, no dropped spindles or cut springs, stock type wheels 6” with normal backspace, all of which seem similar to the ‘36 trollst pickup.

    As far as the on the vehicle spin balance. The first time they balanced the tires and wheels off the car then put them on and spun them. They could not get them right and thought the wheels or rotors were a problem. I checked the rotors and thought they were drilled off center. I bought a new set from Jim Weimer. Not much change. Bought new front wheels. Not much change. Bought new tires. Not much change. Had the wheels spun balanced by someone else, all four, no improvement. He was stunned that did not work.
     
  26. john worden
    Joined: Nov 14, 2007
    Posts: 1,597

    john worden
    Member
    from iowa

    New/old bias/radial makes no difference. They can all be out of round. I've trued several radials.
     
  27. I once was driving a freightliner. They installed new tires on the front . and it developed a shake. I drove all the way to Memphis and Went to Haygoods on Presidents Island to get them spin balanced on the truck. Both tires where out of round. Took them off and put a set of new Kelly tires on the front. not balanced and it drove great.
     
  28. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 10,520

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    Rather than shave life from the tire I’d replace it through the warranty until the company could provide a good tire round enough not to need something like shaving.
    If they couldn’t then I’d try a different company.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
  29. The super condensed version...
    force and lever

    The natural consequence of aTire going down the road creates a force from resistance , the scrub radius is the length of the lever that force acts on.

    I have not ever seen a perfectly true rubber tire.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8H98BgRzpOM
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
    Johnny Gee and winduptoy like this.
  30. nunattax
    Joined: Jan 10, 2011
    Posts: 2,247

    nunattax
    Member

    my local guy would send a defective tyre back to the supplier and replace it on the spot with another but you would have to return to the centre straight away.
     

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