Should we reproduce old speed equipment

Make your OWN speed parts. Don't copy somebody else's stuff, especially something as iconic as Kinmont or Ardun. Chances are you won't get it 100%, and the guys in the know will look down on you with pity ("Poor bastard bought some cheap knockoff").

Design your own part and make the pattern yourself. Have a local foundry cast it, and have a local machinist cut it. Then be proud of it.

See here: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=462249




.

 

Good Questions and I agree that many things, esp. the internet, has hurt the flea markets (I'll still go till I die) but the internet has also provided things that we would never have realized without it.

IMHO, Reproduction bodies...particularly the Steel versions haven't really killed the values of "Real Steel" cars.

It will be interesting to watch what effect Drake's 40 Coupes will have.....BTW, great work Bob and crew.

I'd say go for it! if you have the means and let the market decide if it was a good idea.

 

I can see both sides of the coin. If you spent the time and money to own a rare original part and then someone repops it, it's kind of hard to see every Tom, Dick, and Harry putting one on their car without the time and effort spent.

On the other hand, I don't have a problem with using reproduction parts, if it's the difference in getting a car (or bike) going and having it sitting in the garage for another 5 years.

It would be nice if the parts were enough different to make them distinguishable from originals to keep folks from trying to pass repop stuff off as original. Sun tach cups and some other stuff comes to mind here.
Larry T

 

Disclaimer...this may sound corny.


In the Burbank Choppers episode of Rides "Rat Rods" that focused on the Choppers building the Bad News Model T, Robert Williams said (and I'm paraphrasing) that with original parts I can see the ghosts coming off of them. I just don't see that with cars built from new parts.

That's part of the appeal of original vintage parts. The rarity is another. For me, the hunt, the time spent walking swap meets and old timers' garages and basements is the biggest appeal of searching out original vintage parts. When you come across that special part in some guy's garage and he says "yeah, I had that on my 'fill in the blank' back in nineteen and fifty six and gets that magic look in his eye literally time traveling, and then sells it to you because he knows you'll use it and enjoy it just like he did, well that's pure synchronicity.

That said, there is a market for repops. I am not in that market.

 

Definitely as it's a world wide market these days and not everyone can pop down to the local swap meet to find parts. Any patents for vintage parts will have long ran out but I feel that reproducing them with the original companies name is wrong, no name or with your own name is the way to go unless you buy a license from the original maunfacturer or designer. Also don't go falling into the greedy trap by making it just as expensive as the rare original stuff which seems to be common practice. It all depends on your market though, to me $449 for a single Stromberg carb is a lot whilst it's absolutely nothing for a lot of rodders.

Any examples of what your thinking of Cowtown?

 

I'd be careful here. Our hobby goes through phases of what's in and what isn't. Although a lot of guys will always have "traditional" tastes, a lot of them will move on to another style down the road. It wasn't that many years ago you couldn't give away flatheads, nailheads, Caddys and Olds engines. Now, they're very popular.
I'd have to think long and hard about investing in what could end up being a fad.

 

deja vu......why were they parts back then made in such small quantities? DEMAND,
there were very few guys building hot rods in the 50- 60's that needed the "hot rod" parts that manufactureres only produced limited numbers. Unless you get premission from the original manufacturer you are producing a counterfit product, even if you alter its design slightly. You can call it a reproduction........the confusion will be after it is resold......in 20 years there will have to be experts in determining counterfit and original "hot rod" parts...

 

Years ago I spoke with the guy that originated aluminum heads for early hemi engines about making a hemi head for a Dodge 318/340/360 parts for those motors are cheap,available. He said they had considered it but the concern was they would destroy the market for other parts they had already created.There are companys already making repops of alot of stuff but they are controlling the number of parts produced to controll market.

 

I agree with the post about the stuff being passed off as originals in the future. How long until someone gets burned by a brookville bodied "barn find" being passed off as a Henry bodied original???
Kind of like all the "clones' in the muscle car world. The further removed they get from the original builder, the more chance of them being passed off as originals.

Cost will be a big factor. Look at the stuff Don Orasco has reproduced, and the cost of it. It makes it easier to buy due to quantity, but the price is still up there.

Whatever you make, Speedway will come along in a year and make a cheaper and crappier version made in China anyway.......

 

Several years back Don Orosco did reproduce the Ardun heads. Did an excellent job and sold them all. Didn't hurt the price of the originals one bit.


Along the same line, when I was reproducing race event posters, I did them as exact as possible to the original but printed them on heavy gauge paper rather than the original poster board. I also marked the back of each one, never tried to fool anyone. I just wanted to offer an affordable solution, 10.00 repro compared to a 100.00 and up for an original.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I hate reproduction parts. I hunted and hunted and finally put together a nice pair of 50 Pontiac tail lights. As soon as I get my prize assembled they repop them and everybody with a credit card has them. I'm old enough to remember the same thing for 39 Ford taillights. They used to be pricey too. Does anybody think 39 tail lights are really cool anymore? Kinda boring now aren't they?

I'm sorry but the rarity and the search is part of the appeal for me. When they become plentiful and only a web site away from any lazy johnny-come-lately it takes away the pride of the search and the find.

If that makes me a parts snob, so be it. I love the search. We've lost that part of the sport.

 

MAYBE folks did not read Rich Fox's reply?

ARDUN PARTS ARE BEING REPRODUCED!

 

Mixed feelings on this.

One side sure...go ahead repop.
The other....Yeah, I like the hunt and the original find but sometimes the original is flat wore out and is a wall hanger. Not all of us are savvy enough to know if that 4" crank or those prized special heads and 97 carbs are really any good now.

What were they doing back in the day....making speed equipment to be sold for profit. Some of it was good and some not so good. Hot rodders went to their local speed shop if they had one or mail ordered stuff. Really, not much different today.

Creating good qualtiy stuff with current technology to me is no different then back then.
Remember, the "old" stuff wasn't that old back then and there was a lot more of it.

I guess if there is a market and it sells...hey...why not!

 

If you can bring something to market that will be worth your investment in time & money, sure, do it, its the American way!

If you're going to reproduce something, research and secure the rights to the name and design. This is what allows the repro Fenton headers or Ardun (improved) heads to be made and sold.

I like the idea of creating a new name and (hopefully improved) design for a vintage style part. You're not riding anyone's coat tails that way.

About 8 or 10 years ago there was a guy who tried to bring repro Wayne 12 port Chevy and GMC heads and accessories to market, but wasn't able to get the production or financing issues resolved. I would have liked to have bought one, and I'm sure there would have been customers for them.

One good success story along these lines is Ford Six Performance Products in Az. Mike started off small with making a few parts and special services available for Ford small six owners. He was using the profits to fund a kitten rescue operation that his wife had going. As he heard from more six owners who were dissatisfied w/ Clifford and the general lack of aftermarket for these engines, he has expanded his inventory over the past 8 or 9 years. The real capper was when he brought into production an improved version of the Aussie Ford 12 port head for the 144-170-200-250' six.

If you have the right product, you can make it work.

Later, Kinky6

 

in a word................yes

 

Wanting to do a big block with late 60s early 70s drag race flavor.... Been pricing alot of the more rare items to make it a unique period correct build with the vintage vibe I want. If they made Repros..... and by that I mean "QUALITY" Repros I wouldnt hesitate in buying it. Hell.... Speedway seems to be doing VERY well right now.

 

As long as it does'nt have "MADE IN CHINNNNNNA" sticker.
"AND THE BOWTIE ROLLS ON"

 

While I personally strive to use only original parts, at times I am really glad there are some repos available. Case in point, '32 Ford door handles.

I had looked for years to find a Thickstun throttle linkage that changes the single ball to two-balls for dual linkage. I finally found one that I could borrow, and had a lost wax casting done in bronze, just the like the original. No regrets, yet I am still looking for an original.

I would also love to have a set of Kinmonts on the my car. The one set that I thought that I had found in Florida and had negotiated was swept from under me by a hoarder from Ohio 15 years ago, and the prices have now risen beyond reality. My goal is to outlive this guy, and get chance to buy the set again.

I would love to see Kinmonts reproduced, especially the early Indy race version with the aluminum curved-fin backing plates, which would distinguish these from the originals. A lot of tooling, though.

 

Depends why you want them I guess... it seems a lot (if not most) people want the rare old speed parts because they're rare and unique. If they start being reproduced, they cease to be rare and unique. It's not as cool to pop your hood and say "I've got Ardun this and Thickstun that and Kinmont the other thing" if everyone else at the show has the same parts, ordered from Summit or Speedway for $19.95.

 

If you own old stuff...no. If you need old stuff...yes. Some of the old stuff is beyond use, or costs a arm and leg to bring back. Then again if it's repro, it come from China and it's worth a crap.so where are you .

 

Nope.

 

It depends.

How many are you gonna sell? Take a set of Ardun heads... I'd hate to think what it would cost to repro those, and when it comes right down to it, how big is the market really going to be for them?

Reminds me of my Avatar car... see the chrome strip at the end of the hood? Rare as hell part, they always rust out, made of really thin steel so hard as hell to replate..etc. People looked into repopping them, lots of people said they wanted em..etc. Until they found out that they would have to sell for £350 or so each.

All of a sudden? No takers.

 

I am on both sides of the fence here. I like to have speed parts no one else has,or ever heard of. On the other hand too many times when I find an old piece,its junk,cracked,welded up,pitted,or warped. I bought Navarro heads for my 47,because the Offy heads were too common. Here in Michigan almost no one has heard of Navarro. I looked at a Burn's banger two carb manifold this week end, that was welded up in two places,but I would not buy it. I would buy a perfect reproduction,if there were one available.

 

Would you walk thru a car show saying "wow" if every car had the same previously "rare" part? Not likely. Maybe not a HAMB friendly part, but an excellent case in point. I've been restoring MT valve covers for a few years and got a call last year from Holley that they were doing a feasibility study on reproducing MT's. They wanted my marketing data to determine if the numbers would crunch. I could see the writing on the wall, and knew the value of my stock on those pieces was going to tank. With BBC, SBC and (in a few months) BBF MT's being reproduced, it changes the dynamic. It gives the consumer what a few here are looking for..... a reproduction at an affordable price, but at what price? It's a good thing that economies of scale still rule the market.....

 

There you go, If one decides to reproduce vintage speed parts make some small but identifiable changes that identify it as "their reproduction".

I don't have an issue with quality reproduction parts but I do have an issue with people who try to pass repro stuff off as the real deal.
That would work two fold. It would allow those of us who can't find money in the budget for one of those pieces made out of unobtainium that is only found on the wall of some horder's "collection" and it may lessen the competition for the originals a bit so that the guys who seek the Holy Grail of parts won't have to sell off one of their grandkids to afford the part.

 

As long as the new parts fit and function properly it would be sweet to see more of them, and since it'd be impossible to duplicate all the cool stuff there would still be plenty of rare finds for gem hunters.

BUT: I recently bought a new part ($195.00 shipped)- its kind of crappy. It's a finned Offenhauser valve cover for a Chevy inline 292. It isn't milled flat, doesn't fit my head very squarely at all- the holes are off just enough that I need to drill them larger or fill them and re-drill them and it's not baffled so if I installed it as is it would leak like hell and puke oil up out of the breather...

I actually thought I had the wrong part at first, but that's just what offy has become these days, I guess. Of course lousy new parts are making the old ones that much cooler to find =)

 

It's a gamble reproducing anything for old cars. Our rule was guesstimate the market, price the item get back at least tooling investment and first production run costs from sale of first run and that proved very successful for a lot of years. Most new items were winners, some break-evens, and a few scattered losers rounded out the group.
Got a letter from a customer once upon a time that said "Thanks for making this very rare and desirable part available to everyone... why didn't you have the lock cover made with the leather gasket and copper rivet with the head painted red, you bastards!". This referring to our repro of the GM locking gas cap for 1936-up GM vehicles. Most early Chevy and other GM car/truck owners had never even seen not heard of the cap until we repopped it!

 

As long as you don't to pass it off as "original", then reproduce it all. Everybody is doing it from car parts, to fenders, to glass, to complete bodies. Why stop there? I currently help reproduce parts (laser-scan them and re-make them) for customers that are restoring classics and can't find the parts they need because others swoop in and hoard them for high profits.
It is really no different than a restoration shop that has to re-make a part that you can't find because the vehicle was a one-off build.

 

I am always astounded that this kind of stuff happens. What kind of boneheads are there doing this? Did they never even have a head to make their drilling jig fit? Is this laziness, or just plain stupidity?

 

Too kool man... Agreed, with all the tech, this day and age, we should want for nothing. We put a guy on the moon, last century, and I can't get a set of U.S. Royal Masters for my Catalina? What the fuck is that? I say produce brother, with all your energy; produce whatever is cool. That's what cool guys do, right?

Good to see a Kansas City shop living this mentality; if you can't get it, make it. We need more cats walking the streets like you here.