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selling cars without a dealer license

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by sixbangr, Jan 14, 2011.

  1. bobwop
    Joined: Jan 13, 2008
    Posts: 6,085

    bobwop
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    What is the point? You are not moving here, you are unwilling to trust anything posted, so I am certainly not going to invest the time to hunt down the code then copy and paste it here just to satisfy your doubt. You can find it just as easily as I. Or better yet, prove me wrong
     
  2. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 26,773

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Old thread but I can take you right down town where I live where a curbsider has up to ten cars parked in a parking lot in front of the O'Reilly's parts store with a price and phone number on them and he moves as many as 20 cars a month without a dealer's license. That is who the laws are after. It's us guys who have a bunch of cars who find that we need to thin the herd out in a hurry that get burned by it.
     
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  3. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 6,521

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca


    This it?

    Trans 138.025 Motor vehicle dealer license required; exceptions.
    (2) Exemptions. The following persons are not required to hold a motor vehicle dealer license and, except as provided in this subsection, are exempt from the provisions of this chapter and ss. 218.0101 to 218.0163, Stats.
    (a) Express statutory exclusions. Any person described in s. 218.0101 (23) (b), Stats.
    (b) Limited private sales. Any person who sells or who offers or attempts to negotiate a sale of 5 or fewer used motor vehicles during a 12 month period, provided that the vehicles are privately titled to that person.

    http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/code/admin_code/trans/138
     
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  4. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 4,093

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    I just wonder if the guy from Tx ever bought the car he was wanting......
     
  5. BOBCRMAN
    Joined: Nov 10, 2005
    Posts: 846

    BOBCRMAN
    Member
    from Holly

    In Michigan they will not only issue a warning after 5 sales. They will send a representative to your address on the titles. Had that happen in 84, when I was mostly aquiring and again in 2009 when I liquidated much of my personal inventory (had 54 vehicles, sold 22). Due to major illness. Many were sold on Ebay to buyers on the east coast and Florida. Also got warnings in 96-97 when I got divorced and had to transfer titles ( many of the buy and sell cars were in my ex-wife and daughters names).
    Also have been to court several times over the vehicles. Because of one neighbor that has close ties to and has been on the village board. Just a big hassel and have never been fined. But I've learned a bit about Michigan basic zoning laws and local statutes. Plus this county/township runs their property/zoning disputes thru the traffic law system. That effectively limits some of your rights. Plus they threaten to pull your drivers license if you don't jump thru their hoops.
    Whenever my neighbor gets her self rightious up. Out comes the local gendarmes with camera and pen in hand. Recording anything that touches the ground with tires. Oh how they despise historic vehicle plates! They even tried to have my backhoe and tractor removed ( tactic didn't work).. I am zoned agriculture. But neighbor had zoning changed right up to my line fence so she could split up her property for housing. Sorry for the rant, it was on my mind..
     
  6. Fedcospeed
    Joined: Aug 17, 2008
    Posts: 2,011

    Fedcospeed
    Member

    How the hell does the state know you sold X amount of cars in a year. Do they really spend my tax money having state employees checking this????? My state fronds on you selling something you have had for less then a year.Its all about fees and money and nothing more.They require you turn in old plates when you sell a car or take it off the road,its required,but then charge you a fee to do it. MONEY
     
  7. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 4,622

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    So what you're saying is, you don't really know what the law says, you have taken somebody elses word for it. Have you ever read the actual law itself?

    BTW, the point is that laws contain actual words, and words have meanings. Laws are very specific, but they tend to be applied very broadly, the courts don't like that. There is intent behind law. In this case the intent is to regulate business. Somebody who is liquidating personal assets for personal reasons, such as they no longer have an interest or attraction to the asset, they can no longer care for the asset or have room for it, or any other personal reason, that is not somebody in the business of buying and selling cars for profit, the intent of the law is not to regulate that business, and the law doesn't apply. That is why the term "Prima Facie evidence" is used regarding the number of vehicles sold per year. The evidence indicates that a person may be in the business of buying and selling cars, it doesn't mean he IS in the business. It is not de facto evidence. There is a difference. But again, it depends on the actual words, THAT is the point. Let's see the actual words used in the law you cite.
     
  8. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 11,367

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Yawn...............

    Ray
     
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  9. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 4,622

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Yes, that's it. Minus part 1 where it defines what a dealer is.

    (1)  Dealers. Except as provided in sub. (2), any person engaging wholly or partly in the business of selling motor vehicles or exchanging, buying, leasing, providing services aiding the sale of motor vehicles, offering or attempting to negotiate a sale or exchange of an interest in motor vehicles, whether or not such vehicles are owned by such person, without first obtaining and maintaining a valid license under ss. 218.0101 to 218.0163, Stats., violates s. 218.0114, Stats.
    Note: Examples of motor vehicle dealers include businesses that sell vehicles from their own inventories, persons who sell vehicles on consignment, and “buying clubs" or others who negotiate terms of sale in behalf of consumers or dealers, such as a membership organization which arranges special discounts for its members with dealers. Arranging such discounts constitutes “offering or attempting to negotiate a sale or exchange of an interest in motor vehicles for compensation," which is part of the statutory definition of a dealer. “Compensation" includes increasing the value of membership or affiliation with a club or association.

    So that is written pretty broadly, and really hinges on the part I emboldened above. This is where Lawyers earn their money, carefully parsing the words, and then researching case law to see how the courts have handled it in the past. But what does it mean to "engaging ... in ... business". There will be a section of the code that defines terms, you would have to review that, and as I said, case law. Note that the examples do not contain anything like an enthusiast who is liquidating assets for personal reasons. Seems like a very defensible case to me.
     
  10. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 6,521

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

    I'm not moving to Wisconsin either (as tempted as I am to get out of California sometimes), just was curious why I've never heard of it here. There is a good side to it I suppose, as Mr48Chevy pointed out above, in keeping flippers from poorly fixing shit cars (flood damaged, wrecked..) for a quick sale with no buyer recourse. But unfortunately not good for us hobbyists.
     
  11. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,519

    dirty old man
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'm constantly amazed by these types of threads: zoning laws, laws concerning motor vehicle titles and their transfer, and this thread about how many vehicles sold a year triggers the requirement for a dealer's license.
    Almost always, the person expounding their views is not only not an attorney, they don't even live in the state(s) involved. What a crock!:confused:o_O
    Back in the days when I was an officer in a union, and involved in enforcement of the contract, it's mutually agreed upon interpretations and binding arbitration rulings, I actually saw unfortunate individuals forfeit their recall rights from a layoff, or extended sick leave, etc. because they took the advice of someone who just claimed to be an authority on the subject!:eek::oops:
    Those of us who were trained in the application of the contract as written, interpreted, and ruled upon by the arbitration boards called these individuals passing out this bad info "Shithouse lawyers".:rolleyes:
    If you need to get the correct word on anything involving a law and it's application/enforcement consult an attorney in the state involved, plain and simple.:)
     
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  12. How true! HRP
     
  13. s55mercury66
    Joined: Jul 6, 2009
    Posts: 3,980

    s55mercury66
    Member
    from SW Wyoming

    Crap, I went through the whole thread again, hoping the TX guy had posted the WY guy's results from talking to his lawyer.
     
  14. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 4,622

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Haha, not sure if I was just skewered there, or the guys that blindly accept what somebody on an internet forum tells them. Or all of us, LOL!!

    Oh well, opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one, and some are bigger and stinkier than others. And grumpy old sock f*uckers are entitled to their opinion as much as anyone else. ;) :p
     
  15. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,519

    dirty old man
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Not directed directly at anyone, just a bit of advice to consult a good attorney in your state before you invest your hard earned cash in anything or in the case of your job in the instances I cited on that aspect, a job in which you have seniority to protect or possibly be left out in the cold and jobless just because you listened to some guy with only a surplus of opinions which he is willing to share, but with no education or training in the matter at hand.
    Most of the people who serve in our state legislatures are lawyers and they write laws in such a way that you almost have to protect yourself with an attorney on anything that seems a bit questionable.
    Fortunately for me, I live in GA, where there weren't any title laws on motor vehicles until 1962, IIRC, I do know it was early 60's, and once a vehicle exceeds 25 years of age, no title is required. But it does make things difficult if you have a vehicle for sale and the buyer comes from a title required state. That's why when I bought my '40 Ford coupe in OH, with a title there, I placed that title in my safe deposit box even though the tag agent here didn't even want to see anything more than a bill of sale to register and tag the car here in GA. Now, if I or my heirs decide to sell the car in the future to someone from a state that requires a title, at least there will be available a document proving a legal chain of ownership back to the original title. Friend of mine sold a '55 Chevy truck to another guy from here in GA, who wound up selling it to someone in TN, which is a title state, and that's when the shit hit the fan.:eek:
    My friend wasn't involved in the last sale and in no way was legally required to do so, but he spent a good bit of time documenting and providing proof of ownership of the truck back to the last time the truck was operated, registered and had a tag. The guy in TN did finally get a title thanks to his assistance.
    There are so many crooks out there today that laws have been taken to extremes to try and prevent losses by honest, but gullible people, that now we all suffer inconvenience because of it.
    But make no mistake the various trade groups representing licensed auto dealers are behind the laws concerning limitations on private sales of motor vehicles because they don't want competition to have a leg up on them, especially from people who are selling cars at the curb and have no overhead.
    These trade groups do the lobbying, inform the dealers on who and where to make campaign contributions and we are the victims just because we didn't have the same voice they have.
    So call me grumpy, cause I can be, and you ain't seen nothing here:eek::rolleyes:, because Ryan would ban me if I said all that would like to about some things I read here on HAMB. And in 80 years I have learned a lot in that well renowned "School of Hard Knocks":confused:
    I just try to "take the chaff to get the wheat":cool:
     
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  16. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 11,367

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    I mostly agree with the above post, (#105), but there are other reasons for the dealer laws beyond 'protecting' the dealer body. There is at least as much, if not more, based on protecting consumers from unscrupulous individuals who have nothing to lose by cheating the public. As a regulated dealer, they have a lot more skin in the game and the States can revoke their licenses if they get too far out of line.

    Ray
     
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  17. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 4,039

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    When was the last time anybody spotted that Unicorn?
     
  18. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 26,773

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The local curbsider's offerings today. This guys moves about ten vehicles a week without paying for a dealers license, without paying business taxes and with no recourse for buyers if the rig turns out to be junk but in this town you might not live long if you screw over on his normal customer base. There is a legit car lot a half block away that probably doesn't move as many vehicles as he does on a normal week. The law in this state stipulates that you have to have at least a 3000 square foot lot, an office and a dedicated phone line to have DSCN6037.JPG a dealers license. This guy probably carries a tweaker phone.
     
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  19. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 3,469

    denis4x4
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Colorado

    Based on the posts here, it appears that HAMB'ers can pick and choose the laws they want to obey and pass on those that present an inconvenience. Not the way I was raised.
     
  20. OREGON - bought my Merc from collection of 220 cars, downsizing to 50. When asked if they have a dealers license they said "purely private sale." Great

    OREGON requires transfer of title/new owner paying for new license within 30 days. Which is the reason I asked, as dealers are required to charge for and send in the transfer of title. And I prefer to stretch the 30 days a bit if possible which can only happen if you get current paper title which state confiscates and reissues..

    GOVERNMENT - It's all about money. Dealers pay for the privilege of collecting money for the state. The more they have the more they can spend on clerks who monitor sources of money.
     
  21. Do you trust the Seller ?

    Go get the car ....

    Make out a detailed Bill Of Sale including a note
    that the Seller will transfer title at a specified later date.

    Hold back a fair amount from the purchase price to be paid when the title is executed.

    Jim
     
  22. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 11,367

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Sorry you are so cynical. I should have also said, as a licensed dealer (in my State) they are required to maintain premises, be open to the public during their posted hours and maintain complete and accurate records of acquisition and disposition. As a registered business, the Consumer Division of the Attorney General’s office takes a serious interest in complaints lodged by customers. Those are just the minimum requirements......

    The above info merely points out the difference between dealing with a legal dealer and many curbstone sellers. Personally, I have no problem with people who buy and sell vehicles in modest numbers so long as they are not ‘jumping title’ to do so. That is both illegal and offers absolutely no real benefit to the buyer.

    Ray
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
    Special Ed likes this.
  23. I sold one today.1976 olds 98. Its on its way to Dayton Ohio. Slated to star in next seasons demo derbys. I gave him the title. The former owners signature was the only writing on it. The laws are not about protecting consumers. They are about generating revenue. And that olds was one of twenty five that I bought in a single transaction. It was a court ordered divorce sale. The Circuit Clerk did the auctioneering. And she is the person who gave me the open titles. The poor guy was a avid car guy. He had some chevells and nice 4 wheel drive trucks. and had to bid and buy them at the auction. When It came time to sell the non running and salvage vehicles they stated they had to be moved in 7 days. and where going to sell all of them together. So I made the first bid of $100. and I was the only bidder. It was only 7 miles from here so it wasn't any problem for me to move them. So when a elected official auctions without a auctioneers license and sells more than thirty vehicles in one day without a dealers license. Are laws being broken? My eldest son is a lawyer and I asked him yesterday. He simply shrugged his shoulders and stated no prosecuter would dare file charges and no judge would ever convict.
     
  24. Many places don't have titles. all you need is a bill of sale. In Arkansas I can take a bill of sale and obtain a bonded title on any vehicle that doesn't have a lien on it. There is a benefit to the buyer. If I have to title a vehicle there is the cost of insurance, tags and title fee. around a $100. and I will pass that cost on to whoever I sell to. The $200 olds I sold today would have been $300. and of no benefit to the purchaser as its going to be a Demo Derby car. When its completely trashed he can take it and the open title I gave him to to the recycler. I never guarantee any vehicle and never buy any with any warranty. If your not compentient to inspect something you better hire someone who is.
     
  25. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 11,367

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    're Post 113.........a duly appointed or elected official carrying out a court order can hardly be accused of violating laws intended for non-official business. The passing along an open title is questionable.

    I understand the 'benefits' of getting an open title in some circumstances. One's choice to deal with an open title, whichever side of the transaction you are on, is a personal decision that comes with some degree of risk. Your circumstances are not the only conditions under which deals are made. The world is larger than the intersection where you reside.

    Ray
     
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  26. Gypsyman
    Joined: Apr 12, 2016
    Posts: 1

    Gypsyman

    I just had this discussion with one of the girls at a DOL office here in Washington. She stated that the limit here was 6 combined purchases/sales. So I called a gal that I know at another office to verify and she told me the same thing. This didn't sound right so I started poking around.

    I found this on the Wa State Business Licensing site...

    If you don’t have a dealer license, it’s illegal to:
    • Sell more than four vehicles registered to you in any 12 months.
    • Buy and sell vehicles for the purpose of making a profit.
    • Sell any number of vehicles that aren’t registered to you.
    Looks like in Washington we can buy all we want but can't sell more than 4 in a 12 month period. At least that's the way I'm reading it.

    What I want to know is who decides if I'm "buying and selling for the purpose of making a profit"? Lot's of people make it halfway through a project and sell it for more than they originally paid even if they happen to lose money overall.
     
  27. gene-koning
    Joined: Oct 28, 2016
    Posts: 1,782

    gene-koning
    Member

    When it really comes down to it, I wonder if most states are still pushing issues like this.

    I suspect that if a real car collector decides to sell off part of his collection, like a bunch of them in a short time period, one at a time, the state may send someone out to see what is going on. That someone may or may not push the issue, but if he did, I also suspect a call from a collectors lawyer would solve the issue. The other obvious solution would be to hire someone with a dealer license to sell the cars for you.

    We recently had a change in local laws here where the City wanted to clear itself of "all the junk cars laying around". The started issuing fines at local repair shops that had several cars sitting at them, for any vehicle that didn't move within 7 days that weren't licensed. They tagged about 1/2 a dozen repair shops that had the largest volume of cars sitting, none of which had dealers licenses and the City told them they had 7 days to get rid the the cars or they would fine them daily after the 7 days for each car sitting. One would think a State law covering how many cars you can sell in a year might be helpful to these guys. After hearing about the businesses getting tagged, I was expecting things to come to me, as there are 4 cars here that fit that description. The tagging process started a couple months ago, and has suddenly stopped. Gene
     
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  28. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 26,773

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I don't think I have ever sold enough cars in one year to even consider having a dealers license so for me that is a non issue.
    I doubt that the state of Arkansas gives a rip that Old Wolf passed an open title car off to some guys who were going to use it as a demo car.
    At the private collection auctions I have been to here and bought at the auction company has a dealer's license and does the transfers. Non issue for the seller.

    In this state it is the curbsiders that blow it for all of us. Most of them handle open title cars and only deal in cash so their name never is on the title or transaction. If I was the dealer here in town a block away and in sight of where the curbsider does his transactions I'd be pointing the state license people towards him every time I saw his cars sitting out there.
    I've never heard of this state fussing about how many rigs in one's name get sent to the wrecking yard or scrap yard in one year. I think their only thing there is getting the title marked for the vehicle being scrapped or junked. It's still in the back archives of the system and if someone shows up wanting to title that vin they may have some flaming hoops to jump through.
    Still there should be provisions for selling off collections or parts of collections that don't require a dealer's license or having an auction sale with a licensed to sell cars auction company.
     
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  29. edwardlloyd
    Joined: Aug 2, 2003
    Posts: 2,065

    edwardlloyd
    Member
    from Germany

    So where's all that "freedom" the US is famous for. We have about 50 junk cars waiting restoration or parting out around the shop outside. Some for over 10 years now. When the German environmental agency sent a man round to check us out, he saw the restorations we were doing and wrote us down as a serious restoration shop.

    Sent from my SM-G935F using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  30. We don’t have freedom from taxation BUT we probably have the best “ free market “ for the general public of the western civilized world.


    Jim
     
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