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Recognize the spring bend? help

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 6ftunder, Jun 1, 2013.

  1. Jeremy Shay
    Joined: Jul 11, 2009
    Posts: 356

    Jeremy Shay
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    I picked up a driveable project this week, but instantly have an issue to fix. I tried to snap a few photos on my way out of the house this morning, but forgot to take width measurements on the leaf itself. I did get that the spring is about 41" wide under LOAD. Anyone recognize what year spring this may be by the bend?

    You can see the rubbing issue on the rear axle, and I will likely have to go to a taller ride height. Thank you.
     

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  2. Keep
    Joined: May 10, 2008
    Posts: 662

    Keep
    Member

    Looks like its the shock hitting the rearend. Any chance to move those?
     
  3. Looks like a model A spring to me. It also looks like they put the hangers too close together on the rear end. Neat car!
     
  4. Jeremy Shay
    Joined: Jul 11, 2009
    Posts: 356

    Jeremy Shay
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    They are just unhooked at the top. The rub is from the top ubolt plate nut
     
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  5. Keep
    Joined: May 10, 2008
    Posts: 662

    Keep
    Member

    I see that now, I was looking at the tube on the left.
     
  6. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,213

    F&J
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Looks like the car was originally set up for more spring leaves. I say that because first pic shows shackle angle is very wrong at almost 90 degrees to the ground.

    So, I think they had more leaves at first, when they had the shackle angle OK and had clearance at the rear housing, but it maybe rode too hard, then they took leaves out. Then the spring spread out too far.

    If it did ride too hard, they might have way too much shock and thought the spring was the problem.

    I would get a donor used spring, and try adding leaves. Leave the shocks off while bouncing the rear of the car to tell if you are adding too much spring.
     
  7. Jeremy Shay
    Joined: Jul 11, 2009
    Posts: 356

    Jeremy Shay
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    I can see that eventually helping, by bringing the 'under load' width a bit more narrow. But wouldn't that be just altering the ride height more than elevating the stack plate.
     
  8. Koob
    Joined: Jan 14, 2008
    Posts: 134

    Koob
    Member
    from Bryan, TX

    Get rid of that buggy spring and those shocks and just mount up some good coilovers.
     
  9. manyolcars
    Joined: Mar 30, 2001
    Posts: 7,932

    manyolcars

    the odd bend in the spring is a crude attempt to lower the car
     
  10. GordonC
    Joined: Mar 6, 2006
    Posts: 1,627

    GordonC
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    Forgive my lack of knowledge if this cannot be done, but, can't the u clamp on the spring be rotated 180 degrees with the bolt pointing out away from the rear end? Would that give the clearance you need?
     
  11. GordonC
    Joined: Mar 6, 2006
    Posts: 1,627

    GordonC
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    Sorry just realized the rub was on the center housing and not the axle tube!
     
  12. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,213

    F&J
    ALLIANCE MEMBER


    You need to fix that shackle angle no matter what. With shackle angle straight down like that, the tail of the car will rock side to side. Shackles at roughly 45 degrees, keeps the tail of the car centered as you go around a corner. A bogus band-aid would be a P-bar to prevent that.

    But since you are hitting where it is, you still need clearance. More band-aids would be denting the cover, or grinding the spring hardware to clear.

    As I recall. Model A rear springs came from Ford with around 9 to 11? leaves depending on the body style weight; Roadster vs. 4 door wood framed Murray's.

    Do a quick test to see how much ride height change: Jack up the tail in the center, untill you get some decent shackle angle. Then stand back and look at the car and rake.

    If you can't live with it at that height, you either need to move the welded spring hangers on the rear axle tubes, or a custom width rear spring which will be narrower than yours.
     
  13. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,213

    F&J
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    More thoughts after looking closer: If it was my car, I'd get a stock used spring and remove leaves just enough to get a decent bounce with shocks removed.

    Then look at the new shackle angle. If the angle is now OK, measure how much lower you would want the rear to be.

    Then I'd move the center spring perch upwards, even if that meant putting a "dome" in the trunk floor.


    EDIT; Also get rid of those shocks, they look like 1 ton truck shocks. They took so many leaves out that the spring was now too soft, then added ultra stiff shocks to keep it from bottoming out ..IMO

    A shock worth trying is a "standard duty" front shock for a 1965 or Older VW bug, if you get the spring rate correct for the weight. You can press out the smaller steel bushings in a bench vice if needed, and press in your originals.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
  14. Andy
    Joined: Nov 17, 2002
    Posts: 4,477

    Andy
    Member

    There are a lot of problems with the car. The straight ahead radius rods will surely fail. I would get a 35-48 front wishbone and mount it in the back unsplit. Use the ball mount on the wishbone. I have never ridden in a car with a Model A rear apring that road nice. You are going to have to redo the shackle mounts anway so just go to a 40 front spring. The spring you have will need everything so just replace it. The 40 spring will need to be mounted lower and you can then offset it a bit for your clearance problem. I know I am asking you to redo the whole rear end but it is not safe as is.
     
  15. JohnEvans
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 4,883

    JohnEvans
    Member
    from Phoenix AZ

    Boy some of you guys are shall we say full of it. A springs with the correct number of leaves and either greased [old timey way] or with teflon/plastic liners will ride just fine. Do as F&J said and mount some VW shocks at about 20 degrees off vertical and you will be set. A careful look at the interfearance may show a bit of grinding will give the needed clearance. A pox on coilovers ,patch repair for someone that does not take the time to figgure out how to make a buggy spring work. And Yes I'm having a attitude issue this morning!!! :rolleyes:
     
  16. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,213

    F&J
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    I totally missed the rear arms being straight ahead.
     
  17. Andy
    Joined: Nov 17, 2002
    Posts: 4,477

    Andy
    Member

    John, I don't mind your opinion on the A spring. I still think it needs to be replaced because of the added, missing, and heated leaves not to forget about the shackle angle. I do hope you agree with the split rear radius rods. I have seen and witnessed many torn and collapsed. It is a safety thing. The spring mounts need to be moved back as that is pretty bad interference with the housing and the axle does not need to be moved more forward as it would look like an altered.
     
  18. Harms Way
    Joined: Nov 27, 2005
    Posts: 6,849

    Harms Way
    Member

    Man,... I don't want to beat you up here.. BUT.

    As much as I love the 35/36 Ford rear wishbones, and feel they are plenty strong enough to use without a torque tube on a open rear suspension (due to the increased wall thickness and heavy forged ends) I don't feel that way about the 37-48 bones (what is on your car). Especially in the configuration of being mounted to the perimeter rails, Causing a twist on the ends as one side of the axle travels up and the other side doesn't.... As mentioned the shackle angle wrong as well. (And I just noticed, looking at the pictures,.. you might want to check that pinion angle as well,.. From the pictures, it looks to be way off)

    Sorry Pal,.... I would fix that rear suspension right away,... No sense in taking a big chance on your safety. IMHO
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
  19. JohnEvans
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 4,883

    JohnEvans
    Member
    from Phoenix AZ

    Andy : My comments were directed to the spring issue only. But, I see no evidence of the spring being heated/bent that looks to have pretty much the stock shape. Eyes have been reversed. With the 4 Banger power I don't see too much issue with the rear radius rods,see a lot set up that way. Would I do it that way,not a chance in hell !! Ruins any chance of the rear spring working correctly,instant bind. Your sugestion is MUCH better. Rework of the entire rear suspension is needed for correct operation/clearance.
     
  20. Harms Way
    Joined: Nov 27, 2005
    Posts: 6,849

    Harms Way
    Member

    The big problem with this configuration isn't necessarily the power load or the spring bind,... But in a situation where you have Jounce on one side and Rebound on the other like a suspension travels while in a turn going up a driveway,... (Or one wheel hitting a chuck hole). It puts a enormous strain on the ends mounted to the axle rigidly. And can cause them to fail.

    This pressure is greatly reduced when the forward mounting position of both rods is brought inboard as close as possible to the center line of the chassis.
     
  21. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 25,658

    Mr48chev
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    The hangers may be in the right spot for a Model A spring that wasn't compromised by removing several leaves to lower the car. It would be interesting to see the difference eye to eye on that spring as compared to a stock spring when they laid side by side.

    Those what appear to be Dodge van rear shocks do look way too stout for that car. That's an easy fix though and smaller diameter shocks should clear the axle housing or you can put a spacer behind the shock studs to get the clearance.
     
  22. Jeremy Shay
    Joined: Jul 11, 2009
    Posts: 356

    Jeremy Shay
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    Thanks for the help here on the topic of safety. Not sure if I ever got to the bottom of the initial question, but to hell with it. The Hambers surely saved some extra grief in this situation. Many thanks to all. The car is parked until further notice.
     

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  23. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,213

    F&J
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    You know, there are a few too many people who insist that sraight bones work because some car they saw once, had them

    Those pics show cracks exactly like were posted over the years here, and on the same year of bones.
     
  24. pasadenahotrod
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 11,776

    pasadenahotrod
    Member
    from Texas

    There is only ONE measurement which is necessary to mount a Model A spring correctly with stock style shackles. That is the original measurement, 49.5", from eye to eye of the original spring mounts on any 28-31 Model A rear end except AA trucks.
    Your spring mounts are too close together and those laid down shocks aren't doing anybody any good.

    Andy has been vindicated once again by the photographic evidence of the broken bones.
    You are wise to sideline this project temporarily. My recommendation is to pull the rear end and all that stuff out from there and start over by first correcting the spring mounts. Then reinstall the spring you have. Remove those broken bones and hang them on the wall with a prayer in a plaque thanking God you didn't just go roaring off on a 1000 mile trip. You'll figure out the rest once the bad stuff is fixed up.Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2013
  25. badshifter
    Joined: Apr 28, 2006
    Posts: 3,109

    badshifter
    Member

    As a possible solution to your problem, I have a stock A rear spring that I just had Atlas Spring reverse eyes, AND narrow 2 inches from stock. I ended up using a spring behind setup and don't need the spring now. Stock A shackle mounts were 49 1/2 inch apart on the rear end. Measure yours and you'll see why the shackle angle is wrong.
    Also, the way the shocks are mounted at that angle, they're just along for the ride and not doing any dampening.
     
  26. crossthread
    Joined: Mar 9, 2006
    Posts: 103

    crossthread
    Member

    That spring is identical to my speedway model A high arch .Look at the clamp and center bolt then look on Speedways web site its also 39 inch wide .
     
  27. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,213

    F&J
    ALLIANCE MEMBER


    Look closely; they are disconnected at the top and just laying in the wrong spot. You can see the real mount locations out further
     
  28. iammarvin
    Joined: Oct 7, 2009
    Posts: 1,198

    iammarvin
    BANNED
    from Tulare, Ca

    OP, thank you for putting the front end mount in pictures. Looks like a tie rod end will NOT give enough mobility. If it was mounted closer to the driveshaft would that help?
     
  29. badshifter
    Joined: Apr 28, 2006
    Posts: 3,109

    badshifter
    Member

    I see that now, yup. Here's how I did mine.
     

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