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Rear mounted engine thread?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by oldskoolflyer13, Jul 20, 2011.

  1. oldskoolflyer13
    Joined: Mar 29, 2009
    Posts: 274

    oldskoolflyer13
    Member

    Is there a thread on rear mounted engines on the site any where? I used the search box....and not a lot of tech articles. I may not be using key words...or maybe there is a lack of tech info. Any who...im looking for various tech articles, answers, or general ideas about mounting the engine behind driver. Also looking for info on setting up shift linkages.

    Gonna be gone for a year....when I get back, Im starting my '29 A Sport Coupe.....and then digging in to a 26/27 T roadster. The Fred Carrillo and Don Waite roadster's have sparked the some inspiration....something streetable, but yet go for the 100mph club in the next 4 years at maxton. Plan is to rear mount a beefed up 4 banger with a '39 transmission. I know those cars were setup in/out...but there has to be a way to set up a linkage

    Figured it would be a good place to start, and maybe some help for a few others.
     
  2. Sounds cool, but Maxton is going away after this year! :(
     
  3. oldskoolflyer13
    Joined: Mar 29, 2009
    Posts: 274

    oldskoolflyer13
    Member

    Yeah....not sure where there moving the event to yet......I think with all the support in the area that another suitable location will be found or Maxton will be back. If not...long haul to Bonneville...was hoping to run ECTA first to check for issues.....guess its Highway 301, 401, or the 295 bypass....
     
  4. There's a run of concrete in Loring, Maine. Don't know which is closer to us, Bonneville or Loring.....
     

  5. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    Both rods and low friction cables have been successfully used over the years to shift rear mounted engine/trans units in various production vehicles and race cars. That includes everything from F1 cars and Lotus sports cars to old manual trans passenger buses. As you would suspect, shifter feel isn't as good as it would be with a more direct linkage.
     
  6. oldskoolflyer13
    Joined: Mar 29, 2009
    Posts: 274

    oldskoolflyer13
    Member

    It couldnt be much different, but for the hassle of going up I95.....Bonneville all the way.
     
  7. Marcia
    Joined: Feb 27, 2009
    Posts: 621

    Marcia
    Member

    Don't use 95! We go down 81 to Roenoke and cut across. nice peaceful drive except for Hartford CT. They race once a year at Loring. Hopefully they will add more meets.
     
  8. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member

    I think Corvairs and Pontiac Tempest cars used Saginaw transmissions and especially the Pontiac can be used as a trans axle for a deal like yours. Swing axles were a fairly common way to couple a rear engined car to a fixed differential, and still have suspension.
     
  9. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    Swing axles are tolerable if the tires aren't too wide. The most extreme use I know of was the 180MPH, pre-WWII, mid engine, German road race cars. With some power and wide or stiff tires the camber change caused by the swing axles makes the car scary and unpredictable.
     
  10. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member

    If you look at old rear engine roadsters, several of them, as well as lakesters and streamliners, had swing axles. My roadster, for instance has swing axles. One gazillion Volkswagens had swing axles. Several people who owned one survived. I had a Tempest with a swing axle. I also survived no mater what Ralph said. If this guy wants to repop an early REMR he needs to at least consider swing axles. Something has to be done about the pinion input and trans output shafts
     
  11. evintho
    Joined: May 28, 2007
    Posts: 1,784

    evintho
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  12. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member

    Can't say that I like the Whippet much. On the other hand, here is what passes for a rear engined Modified Roadster at Bonneville these days. Ray the Rat photo
     

    Attached Files:

  13. sailingadventure
    Joined: Feb 11, 2007
    Posts: 279

    sailingadventure
    Member

    Attached Files:

  14. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    No argument with anything you said. And yes, swing axles have been successfully used in many different cars and applications. At the same time, the shortcomings of swing axles are well known, and that's just the reality. I simply pointed out that swing axles are not ideal. And for the benefit of anyone considering swing axles on something powerful with wide and/or stiff tires, it's a bad option.

    You mentioned VWs...... swing axle VWs, as well as assorted other swing axle cars including Fiat, Triumph, Tempest, Corvair, Renault, etc, etc, all had notoriously mediocre handling. Not that swing axles can't work, and yes there are several method that help civilize them a bit, I am just keeping things in perspective. Also intertesting to note, per the VW you mentioned, and the Corvair; on those cars swing axles were eventually upgraded to articulated rear suspension. That wasn't done because the existing swing axles needed no improvement.
     
  15. retromotors
    Joined: Dec 10, 2008
    Posts: 1,045

    retromotors
    Member

    RichFox,
    LOL ....that's my kind of humor....love it!!!:D
     
  16. I suggest you follow Bobby Green with his old crow racing team,,,Bobby is a member here and has a couple of belly tankers,,lots of good information. HRP
     
  17. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member

    Nor can I argue with you. But the OP is talking about a tribute car to an early 50s REMR. As such a Jag or other IRS would not look right as would fat tires look out of place. I doubt he want's to autoX it. In the old days people used a V8 center section and very short half shafts. Welded torque tube bells just outboard of the center and used (in mine) Lincoln U joint to connect the R&P to the half shafts. "56 Olds, again in mine. Mine has always run about a 29 inch tall 8 inch wide hard tire. Actually spun a few times without any excess drama. That's what people used when that's what people had. Today you could do the same thing with a Tempest trans axle. Or be true to the breed and used Ford parts.
     
  18. oldskoolflyer13
    Joined: Mar 29, 2009
    Posts: 274

    oldskoolflyer13
    Member

    Maybe not a tribute for say.....but, one cant argue that there is something very spiritual in the hot rod sense about a traditional REMR....just something about them that appeals to me.

    Lets say in theory that I use a '39 Ford trans and rear axle....how does that come together, and how does the pinion correct itself with using a setup like in attached pics? I could see if the rear was rigid..no issues

    *stole pics from here, there, and every where
     

    Attached Files:

  19. hrm2k
    Joined: Oct 2, 2007
    Posts: 3,696

    hrm2k
    Member

    the picture above is of the Carrillo roadster. I helped with the group that did the restoration. The roadster has an old sprint car type in and out box ( crager to be exact ) The output of the in and out box is bolted directly to the rearend.


    [​IMG]
     
  20. Morrisman
    Joined: Dec 9, 2003
    Posts: 1,600

    Morrisman
    Member
    from England

    Must have been a nightmare driving them, trying to get 29 horsepower to the ground with them axles bouncing an hammering around like crazy. :eek:




    ;)
     
  21. Mercedes "gullwing" 300SL was swing arm and the worlds fastest production automobile in 1955.
     
  22. Kenneth S
    Joined: Dec 15, 2007
    Posts: 1,527

    Kenneth S
    Member


    The engine, trans, and rear axle are mounted in their own frame which pivots in the front (like a wishbone, ladder bar, or hair pin setup) with a spring in the rear.
     
  23. coilover
    Joined: Apr 19, 2007
    Posts: 658

    coilover
    Member
    from Texas

    We all know how terrible a Porsche is cornering and at speed.
     
  24. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 4,251

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    ... and MB found it necessary to redesign the rear suspension quite radically after four years of production. The resulting low-pivot swing-axle arrangement found its way onto lesser Mercedes of the '60s. The later 300SL also had a compensator spring to reduce rear roll stiffness.

    The low-pivot arrangement was actually quite clever, as it got rid of one CV joint in the process. It was more like a live axle hinged at a point around the bottom of the pumpkin. The pumpkin was attached to one half of the "axle" and therefore rotated a bit with suspension travel. The CV joint had a telescoping coupling to allow the other half to slide in and out.

    It might be something to consider for the sort of set-ups under consideration here. If the little bit of driveshaft that is needed for the pivoting pumpkin to work isn't there one can do the same thing on both sides, with low pivots either side of a transaxle. Variations on that include pivots on opposite sides like a Ford TIB front end, or swing-axles on short trapezoidal linkages to place the pivot points near the ground. And then of course there is a plain old DeDion, quite typical of the thinking in that era.

    By the way, has any of you seen how Hans Ledwinka got early Tatra swing-axles to work without Hooke joints or CV joints? The differential was turned longitudinal and driven directly from the gearbox. The side gears were therefore disposed front and back, and each drove a pinion and ring gear. The ring gears were attached to bearing carriers that were free to rotate about the gearbox output/differential/pinion axis, the whole being covered with flexible gaiters. Very clever.
     
  25. oldskoolflyer13
    Joined: Mar 29, 2009
    Posts: 274

    oldskoolflyer13
    Member

    Are there any pics of these setups? HRM....you have any pics of the engine mounts from the Carrillo restoration?
     
  26. hrm2k
    Joined: Oct 2, 2007
    Posts: 3,696

    hrm2k
    Member

    This is pretty much as Kenneth S described it.
    The trailing arms provide not only the rear end placement but the motor mounts are attached to the trailing arms as well. The in / out box attaches to the back of the motor and the the rear end connects to the in / out box. If you drop the 4 bolts holding the rear spring, detach the shocks and the 2 mounting bolts for the trailing arms, you can lift the body up and over the entire drive train..............and Carrillo ran 180 mph in this thing :eek:




    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  27. oldskoolflyer13
    Joined: Mar 29, 2009
    Posts: 274

    oldskoolflyer13
    Member

    See, this is all making more sense now.....going off old pics and cut-away drawings only goes so far. Was there anything in particular that was used or modified for the trailing arms?
     
  28. hrm2k
    Joined: Oct 2, 2007
    Posts: 3,696

    hrm2k
    Member

    Just about everything. I went back to look at the construction pics and I have 2 more of the engine mount / trailing arm setup. I had forgotten that the rear mounts also were on the trailing arms when I posted the other pics.
    There 2 pics show the rear mount as well as the trailing arm mount on the rear end


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  29. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 4,251

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    It's basically the same principle as a Vespa rear suspension! Get the swing-arm pivot close enough to the centre of gravity of the entire assembly and the heavy bit doesn't register as unsprung mass. It can be done quite elegantly.
     
  30. plywude
    Joined: Nov 3, 2008
    Posts: 699

    plywude
    Member Emeritus
    from manteca ca

    There have been a number of rods built with the Pantera ZF gear box, two 26 T's that I know of, it would be a swing arm set up but these gear boxes are bullet proof, Doug Cook pushed his Pantera to over 200 mph at Bonneville so they can take the horse powder and handle the speed...
     

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