I need to purchase some more paint for my car and I can't find the 2k epoxy primer/sealer that I used initially on my car at the paint store. What I find in the store is high build epoxy primer and don't know if I should use it. Every thing I've read on epoxy primer says that it is a non-sanding product, so why is this high build then? After the epoxy primer, I have been using direct to metal 2k urethane high build primer. This is the stuff that I have been sanding to get a smooth surface. My question is - since the latter product says direct to metal, am I wasting time and money putting epoxy primer on the bare metal ? Is high build epoxy primer something I can sand? Should I try to find the 2k epoxy primer/sealer I used at first? What does the 2k mean? Do I really need etch primer on my aluminum hood? I have been rolling the body out in the driveway to paint and then dragging it back into my warm garage. Since we've just been dealt a big dump of snow, I have time to ask these questions.
Epoxy is best as a first coat if doing later body work, or storing for a long time. The newer 'direct to metal' urethanes are OK if not needing more filler or painting soon. I think we need to more about the brand of the high build epoxy to comment further on that. But, the maker's tech sheets should provide more guidance. 2K simply means that the paint/primer is composed of 2 parts that are mixed at the time of application. That sets it apart from the older primers that just need to be thinned. I no longer use etch at all. Always start with epoxy. Some guys refuse to use 'that cheap junk', but I get very good results with Kirker Enduro Prime. Unlike urethanes, epoxy is waterproof and will not absorb moisture if stored outside. JME and opinions from that experience.
Lots of good questions here. I’m certain I’ll get roasted for some of my paint “ideals”. I’ve been a paint sales rep for the two largest paint companies in the world the last 12 years. Maybe I can help. Prob is, a lot of paint product selection and process are personal preference, and not necessarily right or wrong. First, I’m a large fan of premium paint products by any manufacturer (not value or snake oil products), I’m a huge fan of buying one brand of products throughout a build and sticking to it, and I’m a huge fan of a 2K epoxy primer/sealer over bare steel and aluminum. Any 1K products (even mixed etch primers) can be re-flowed. As far as 2K DTM primer surfacers (surfacers meaning a sanding/blocking product) something has to give. 20 years of being around paint and cars, I’m just not a fan of DTM surfacers. I can’t see how any manufacturer can make a highly corrosion resistant 2K DTM surfacer that sands good and builds high, and LASTS, without some kind of metal pre-treatment. I know guys do it. I know of PPG guys using the old PPG NCP270 over bare steel and sanding it, going to directly to topcoat. I just won’t do it. I use 2K epoxy like Axalta 2540S, a 2K urethane surfacer like Axalta 33430S, and topcoat. As far as high build epoxies, some epoxies can be sprayed un-reduced, or reduced to thin out and use as a sealer. It can be a significant difference in building property. I say if you need a ton of build out of epoxy, you need to do more body work. Primer surfacer will take care of the rest. Hope this helps, lot of useless info here, part of being a paint geek I guess.... Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
I have not seen high build epoxy. I can't imagine it being good to work with. I use both Kirker and Summits private label and have no complaints.
The can says Proform from Milton Ontario. The high build epoxy was from Global, but I didn't buy it so no idea about it. Thanks, guys.
Proform Epoxy Primer Surfacer is still readily available and Global should be able to get it. If not there are a bunch of other places you could get it from in Alberta. Are you in Lethbridge? Did Global try and sell you their private label? I am pretty sure that is a Proform product.
Some epoxies sand well others do not. I haven’t used the high build epoxy myself but a friend of mine does and loves it. 2k means it has to have a hardener. Epoxy products are generally always designed for bare metal. Not all urethane are. I personally prefer epoxy for bare metal I like polyester primers better than urethane due to less shrinkage. I have seen issue with DTM primers. I have seen the evercoat DTM lift. And adhesion issues with PPGs first DTM urethane. Epoxy will lift if you apply polyester and sometimes urethane over it too soon. So what’s the best. I don’t know. I will epoxy bare metal, then apply either a urethane or polly over that the next day. This prevents solvents from being trapped and attacking the epoxy. Some say it’s overkill but it hasn’t caused an issue. The best DTM primer I have used is Clausen Zchrome. There are many correct answers. Always read the tech sheet and follow instructions. Don’t try to outsmart the chemists.
I have a completely different take on painting a classic vehicle. The purpose Of a primer is to combat rust and corrosion. so with that in mind I use the most anti-corrosive primer in the world. This primer blocks both moisture in oxygen completely it only comes in one color silver. This primer will do thousands of hours of salt spray , it has a high build that levels up pitting in sheet metal. Then I follow it up with epoxy or urethane primer and then the color coats. Automotive paint systems are much different, you're not going to put a 20-year paint job on a 2013 Honda with a dented fender. Decades ago I would tell customers to use this primer all the areas at this car had rusted previously like bottoms of the doors, trim clips etc. Customers would call back and say this car looks like a zebra why can't I prime the whole car with it I would tell them okay but make sure you put the surfacing primer on that day and take it from there. One day I was at Carlisle and I met a Father and Son team doing a Challenger. The roof, trunk lid, and hood was pitted ,I sold them two quarts and off they went. The following spring they approached my booth and didn't look happy I asked them how'd you make out ? The father said the roof ,the hood, and the trunk came out perfect the rest of the car look like s*** We should have Primed the whole thing with it. It is a enormous responsibility and a bit dangerous to hand out products to a person like yourself that spends hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars on their project , especially when you show up at the same spot year after year . That's my take on that . Happy holidays
I may have asked and forgot. Do you have the info on the primer you use. And thoughts on epoxy when used with the correct metal prep products
30 years ago we bought a beat to hell 25 ton tilt bed semi-trailer for about nothing and rebuilt it from the ground up. When all the welding and other repairs were done we sandblasted the entire structure and I shot it with some Sherwin Williams industrial epoxy made for structural steel and topcoated it with some S-W industrial enamel that's about the equivalent of the tractor paint you can get at Tractor Supply and similar places. We've still got that trailer, and after 30 years of construction sites and every other imaginable abuse, there's not a spec of rust anywhere on the top or underside other than a few places on the main beams of the bed where the grousers on dozer tracks have peeled everything off to bare metal. I've been painting cars and trucks and construction equipment off and on for 50 years, and I've never seen anything else that could hold a candle to epoxy's ability to provide a barrier between bare metal and the world around it.
I tried downloading a product data sheet with no success. If you go to nomorerust.com the ministry of propaganda has all the info. Sherwin Williams recommends using a cleaner Etch. It was Shore chemical ac10 metal prep it's now Sherwin-Williams ac10. SPI says not to use metal prep. I metal prep everything. Epoxy primer is great for adhesion purposes. Zinc Phosphate epoxy primer has pinholes because of the zinc. A non phosphate zinc primer is used over it to seal pin holes. We regard as a surfacing primer. A lab chemist explain that to me So I have no qualms about using an epoxy primer. I wanted to introduce to the Hobby a zinc Rich primer used on Smart bombs that does 3000 hours of salt spray but I don't think in my old age that I want to get involved with it. Marketing was never one of my strong suits
What you got 30 years ago was a what they call a Zinc Rich epoxy. This was the standard for years for Bridges and outdoor service work. Some of the ingredients have been outlawed so what you get today is a different modified formulation. zinc-rich is still available . in some cases It is sold as a three-component coating where you mix the zinc in on the job site.
Nothing wrong with a quality, high build epoxy primer. I've been using House of Kolor's EP-2 and KP-2 for over 30 years. Great adhesion, fills 36 grit scratches in 5 coats (not that I ever would do that!), and sands relatively easily. Some of my Candy paint jobs over this primer are still around after 30+ years. HOK's been getting really pricey lately, so I'm trying Tamco's version of it.
Come to the dark side, TAMCO is the way to go! Tammy and the gang can sort you out on any questions you might have. Prices are reasonable, product is amazing and so is the support. Im a small time player, yet I have the cell # to Tammy and can call or text my questions and have answers that day, usually within minutes. Ive now been using their stuff for about 5 years. I find it works better for me than anything else did. Their DTM high fill primer is like crack, one gallon and youre addicted. Fills and sands so nice!
I use regular paint or primer on plastic. But that is used with the either the plastic conversion primer or adhesion promoter suggested by the paint manufacturer. Clean with soap and water, alcohol cleaner. Never any wax and grease remover on raw plastic.
Follow Anthony's directions for prepping a plastic wheel. In my particular case I did wheel about 10 years ago and I coated it with full polyester urethane preferably a 2 to 1 mix. Imron and AG 111 are polyester urethanes. polyester urethane have excellent abrasion and chemical resistance And in my case it worked out really well. I did not use any primer at all
The generic answer for plastic is Bulldog Adhesion Promoter for plastic. And various off brand versions. Any plastic part has to be clean. Years of armor all type products used and how the plastic is molded. A plastic part is generally plastic ‘BBs’ heated thru a molding process or chemical components poured in a mild There has to be a mold release. This can sometimes be in the plastic components itself. At one time we were told to bake plastic parts in the booth to help reduce mold release agents. Some say use hot soapy water to clean plastic. Some paint systems use special cleaners with adhesion promoters in them. You basically have 2 main types of plastic. Plastic that will“powder” when sanded. And plastic that will smear if sanded aggressively. The rule of thumb is if it smears, it needs an adhesion promoter. However, a paint class I attended suggested that the adhesion promoter being so thin, it doesn’t hurt applying to plastic that sands. Now, this all applies to raw unpainted/primed plastic or repair areas. If the finish on the plastic part is good, treat it like a normal part. Our rides here don’t have flexible bumpers so we won’t worry about that. we teach that wax and grease remover and other oil based solvents are not to be used on raw plastic. These can soak into the plastic and cause paint adhesion issues. I always clean with warm soapy water. Followed by an alcohol based cleaner.
I'm digging up this old thread just because I've searched through the HAMB and can't find the answer to my questions. I'm at the point of applying paint on my '39 Chev project, and getting conflicting info on what to do. I've stripped the car to bare metal long ago. I sprayed epoxy primer on it after doing all the metal repairs, and then did minor bodywork to prep it. Shot regular 2k primer over the car, and planned on shooting one more coat of primer over the entire car before shooting paint. Here's where I get conflicting info. Some say to use epoxy primer again over the whole car, and some say just use a good primer. Some say to shoot paint over the primer after letting it "gas out" for at least 24 hrs. But some say even a week isn't an issue to wait. Some tell me to shoot paint over epoxy sealer within hours of priming to ensure good adhesion, but others say the opposite! And all are pros giving me opposite advice! I'm so thoroughly confused at this point that I've halted everything. The car is masked, and ready to shoot primer, epoxy primer, paint; but not doing anything until I know what is the correct way to go. I have epoxy primer-sealer, 2k primer, and a single stage acrylic urethane final top coat all here. So whatever way is the right way, I think I'm ready to go. HELP!
What is regular 2K primer? All primers are 2 k other than lacquer or enamel. Providing some specifics would make it easier. What products did you use? There are no generic answers. Other than what to spray (and that can be dependant on what is on there now) the answers to all your other questions are on the technical data sheets of whatever you have used and decide to use. "Pro's" often do what they want and often it is not correct. Read the data sheets and do what they say. Companies don't take the time to make them to feel good.
I've read all the technical data sheets for my epoxy primer, and the Speedkote Speedline 2k primer, and nothing that tells me when the paint can or should go on once I use either. If you see something here stating when it should be painted over, or how long I can wait once it's dry, please have at it. https://s3.amazonaws.com/speedosds/TDS/SMR-210+SL+Tech.pdf I presently have Speedkote epoxy primer/sealer on it #SMR 260G. I know I can put more on, or put the regular 2k Speedkote primer over it. So I have a good base. I just need to get input on what direction to take, and times both min. and max. after it's primed, when paint can be applied. None of this info is on the data sheets, unless there's some code I don't see? Their epoxy primer SMR 260G does state it needs to be painted over within 3 days, or sanded prior to paint if done past 3 days. So I guess the safe way is to just shoot more epoxy primer, and then whether I shoot paint within 72 hrs., or sand prior to painting, it should still be OK. https://www.speedokote.com/smr-260g-261-2-1-voc-epoxy-dtm-primer-sealer-gray/
That's a urethane primer only not a primer/sealer. It cannot be used as a sealer so you have to wait the full cure time and then sand it and then top coat it. It gives you dry to sand times. That is when you can paint over it after sanding. If it doesn't provide a recoat window that means once sanded it can be recoated at any time. Not sure what SMR 250G is as they list SMR 250 as a plastic seal so can't help there. Edit: Do you man 260G? If so then the TDS gives all the pertinent info about dry times and recoat. You need to know what you are using for a top coat and check those TDS sheets as well. If you are painting at home you are going to want to let anything fully cure and sand it. The chances of you spraying a perfect sealer coat that you can top coat over are slim to none outside a paint booth.
OK, so I just got off the phone from TCP Global tech line. Extremely helpful, and the advice contradicts everything else I was told by others! I asked about using epoxy primer over the bodywork, and just before paint. The reply was I should mainly use it (as I did) direct on bare metal, and use high build over that and the bodywork. When I asked about timing, they told me to spray paint over primer in 2-3 hrs., and no longer than 24 hrs. I asked if there was any reason it couldn't be painted over beyond this, and was told if I painted over the 2k primer after 24 hrs. I would need to sand it prior to painting, and then paint within 3 hrs. So I have my answer now! No more epoxy primer. 2K high build next, and then paint within 24 hrs., or sand and paint anytime after that. So no rush to paint after 2k primer, unless I want to avoid sanding.
But again it is product dependant. Nothing on the TDS you posted says that that particular product can be topcoated without sanding. It is NOT a sealer. Primers cannot be topcoated without sanding, sealers can. Some products can be both but it has to indicate that they can be used that way. Unless the Manufacturer of the product says it is ok no one else can tell you if it is an acceptable practice. Even if they have had it work 20 times in the past doesn't mean it will always work. I have a call a month from customers who say "thats the way I have always done it and never had a problem" when something fails and they have been doing it wrong all along and been lucky. You do not want to paint a car and have it all peel off a year later.
The 250 was a mistype. It is 260G, not 250G. The link I posted for the data was for the 260G, not 250. But from what TCP told me the SMR 210 is fine to use as a base for my final urethane paint. Are you telling me it will need sanding regardless of when that final coat of paint is put on? I'm fine with sanding it. Just don't want to miss step.
Sand it. There is no indication from speedokote that that product can be topcoated directly. If it could they would provide the information needed to do it properly. Like they do on the 260G. If it could be topcoated directly they would have something like this (taken from 260G)in the TDS: DRY TIMES Air Dry Flash Between Coats 5 - 10 minutes Dry Time 30-60 minutes before topcoat Note: Scuff and Recoat if let to sit more than 24 hours Frankly I find it hard to believe TCP global is willing to give product advise on a product they don't even seem to sell. Not saying they didn't just that it's not something the vast majority of distributors would do. We had a primer on the market for a year before we ok'ed it to be used as a sealer because we wanted to make sure it would hold out before we said it was good to go.
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