Question, if I make my chopped 30 frame from aluminum, am I still HAMB worthy?

I want to have something a bit unique, a challenge, I want to build my 30 Ford with a 3" chop, a 331 Hemi and a manual trans, low, black, fender less, bones, old style slicks in the back, black steelies, bias plys. straight axle traditional in design. At this point it would look a lot like 6000 other cars at 50 feet. Is it within the boundaries of traditional cool to fabricate an aluminum frame, leave all the dime stack, put a mild brush on it and clear coat it. Could we assume Joe came home from Korea in 54 and knew a lot about aluminum from servicing jets? Built a frame from aircraft aluminum and was good, or does it have to have existed and proof known. I'm putting my drink on the edge of the table, I know that, but I would respect you guys opinions as to why it would get pushed off the edge. Thanks, Frank

 

Hell Yeah! And we would want pics.

 

That's a trick question, because it doesn't address the configuration of the frame. You said that from a distance, it'll look like a "traditional" frame. I interpret that to mean side rail contours like an A or '32. Frames of that design will flex, even with a proper K or X member. That's what they're designed to do. Therein lies the problem. Aluminum will soon work harden and crack under those conditions. If you built a frame from aluminum where the structural design elements would eliminate flex, it sure ain't gonna look traditional. Just my opinion, and I'm sure you'll get plenty.

Bob

 

Never mind I Mis-Read your post

 

I don't know if it is HAMB worthy or not but the Codington A pickup has an aluminum frame.

 

I recall several articles in the "little books", of cars with aluminum frames...

 

There may be some exotic Aluminum alloys that are strong enough to make a conventional frame copy but my expirience with fabricating out of available Aluminum is that it takes a lot more bracing and thicker stuff to get the strength needed. You can probably make a nice girder style frame similar to aircraft wing construction and it would have a "WOW" factor but it will be expensive and probably just as heavy as a steel frame.

Good luck.

 

you couldn't build it like a conventional ladder chassis. it would need more boxing, gusseting and volume enclosure kinda like an .... airplane. spreading out the loading will reduce the cracking tendency. but it would be cool as hell. it becomes its own belly pan, and think how crazy you could go belling holes. green chromate paint inside, mirror polish outside

 

Thanks guys, this response is encouraging. It would be for the WOW factor, that factor gets harder to come by as the high level of quality keeps going up on these cars. On a car such as a 30 with no fenders and in black there are only so many moves to make that make the car unique. It's refreshing to be able to consider this as an option. This would be a tough thing to do correctly, I think it would almost need to be a monocoque concept frame that would take a lot of examination to discover it's secrets. Since the thread is still alive that must mean it may possibly be accepted, next question, may it be polished and clear coated of course all of the welds would stay in as laid form. Stacked.

 

You might be able to get an aluminum frame to work but hanging 750 pounds of early hemi on it is a step in the wrong direction. You will probably have to use 6061-T651 aluminum as it is fairly strong and can be welded, don't uses 6063. The 6061 aluminum is in the T6 configuration which is a strong as it will ever be except every place you weld it will be in the "0" condition which is pretty weak. If you look at the tensile strength of 6061 it is around the same as mild steel, if it is in the T6 condition, if you weld it, it will be in the "0" condition and loses about 1/2 of its strength, and because of a property called "the modulus of elasticity" aluminum will deflect 3 times as much as steel under the same load conditions and configuration. And as mentioned aluminum also has a very poor "endurance limit" which is directly related to fatigue life and the only way to get around this is to keep all of the stresses very low, which means big sections and thick material. If you spent the time doing the load and stress analysis to keep the loads low enough you could probably make an aluminum chassis work but it won't look like a set of 32 rails!

The Coddington cars had aluminum rectangular tube chassis but the wall thickness was at least 1/4 to 5/16 inch thick.

Rex

Rex

 

I see this same thing all the time in Living History. Folks try and take some hypothetical storyline and transpose it on an era.

Go take a look at a steel flatbead trailor then look at an aluminum one and note the size differences in the materials used. Then let me know which roads you will travel so I can stay off them!

 

Thanks Rex, great info.

T Man, The average frame on these cars is not even boxed, take into consideration a frame like the Coddington frame, or supposing that you could make the frame and it looked 99% like a boxed original. So close that if you painted it that 99% of all the guys would be fooled into thinking it was a steel frame, what then? Keep in mind, I do really respect your opinion, you do really respect the limits of the box that traditional fits into. The frame must be unique yet still HAMB worthy, that is my objective. Any criticism by you is truly appreciated, it defines the edges of the table. Thanks.

 

Well, if nothing else, this thread gets people thinking. Batting ideas around is never a bad thing...
Can't wait to see where this goes!

 

bull..
it can work.

and it could be cool..

and..
(even though I do like the idea of a hemi powered a coupe on 32 rails)


another hemi powered a coupe on 32 rails.. would be..

just another hemi powered a coupe on 32 rails

but no matter what.. do what you want

but don't try to say that it was something someone could have done..

because.. that's just dumb, and at this point.. cliche'

 

Thinking further, it seems like it would work going the "aircraft" way. You mentioned in you post about a guy coming back from Korea who worked on aircraft. I was just looking at old photos of lake cars and thinking how much aircraft technology of the 40's was involved.
I can see aluminum being used with that "theme". But trying to use aluminum to work like steel will just created thickness. Tmans analogy regarding trailers is correct.

Well, you asked......

 

Didn't say he couldn't do it. Did imply that he is stretching his premise to justify the results. It can be done, but most folks would fuck it up

 

Yes, Monocoque construction is one thing, Ron Fournier covers it well in his Metal fabricating book from the early 80s.

 

Why does it matter if it's "HAMB worthy"? Are you building something to impress the folks here? Or something that YOU want to build and enjoy for yourself? If it's the latter, just do it! If it's to impress the HAMB community, I don't get it.

 

I may well Fuck it up as well, never would say that I could not, I promise I won't kill any innocents with it as I still sort of like keeping my own skin covering all the soft parts, my main concern is would it be HAMB worthy. Shit, I already have a 38 panel that has been labeled a street rod.
We all want something unique, something we like that no other brother has, I want something unique that has all of it's dignity, I want a ride that says hey aint I cool. Some guys weld a BBQ grill to their cars and put doll heads on them, not me, I want to build something that stretches the point but doesn't cross into the other forms. I want to build something on the edge of the table with it keeping it's status as a hot rod. I'm looking for definition, I don't want to start down a path and next thing you know I am called dork and my build thread gets deleted, I'm sure you can understand that. I want to color within the lines, but right up to the edge.

 

Then have you looked into a tube frame? Historically correct, many boys came back from the war and built cars this way. Look at the Carillo Roadster and check out Zachs work

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198599&highlight=tube+frame

He has several updates if you search his threads.

 

Maybe you can find someone with a CAD or modeling program and test the frame on the computer first ? Sounds like it could be done but you are talking about some serious ching $$$$$$ . good luck

 

i aggree

 

As others have alluded to, I would be more concerned with killing myself than being HAMB friendly. I am not a structural engineer, so you can take this for what its worth, but building a traditional style ladder chassis out of aluminum, then plonking an early hemi in it sounds to me like a recipe for disaster.
Aside from that, for your background story to ring plausible, I would stick to a lightweight theme throughout. A V8-60 would make more sense, or better yet, if you really want to build a rod with an aluminum chassis and make it "period", I would consider moving the period up to the early sixties, and building it with a round tube space frame, and using a 215 Olds or Buick for power. I would use a sprint car/indy influenced theme, lots of engine turned aluminum, lightening holes in all the components(but NOT the chassis!) ect. I can see a rodder being influenced by all the press the M/T indy cars got prior to the crash, and building something in that theme.
As has been mentioned the traditional early ford chassis works by flexing. Heres a real simple test you can do at home, that will hopefully make you think hard about your hemi idea. Take a 2"x .125" strip of mild steel, put it in a vise, and bend it back and forth until it snaps. Now do the same thing with a piece of 6061...

 

Thanks for that link T Man, That young guy sure has talent, I like that tube design, he sort of made a truss, this is a very possible design.
I love building them, more than anything I like the therapy of the build. I have one to drive around, this one is for therapy, learning and the fun of the build. off to do more research thanks.

 

FP,
I've built some Al frames for structural loads in manf gear/equip. You would be amazed at how lively they are! Best parallel that comes to mind: watch one of the newer AL trailers behind a Semi, With-a-Load on it, take a few bumps on a highway.
It would need deep section, thickness and temper, to not become flexible to the point of "shedding body parts".

 

If you want to stay with an aluminum theme, what about an aluminum block buick??

Mabey Q/c in the rear too?

 

I work with aluminum 10 hours a day and have thought about this same project. I don't know enough about the elements of construction of an aluminum car frame, but I say go for it.

 

There is NO reason an aluminum chassis wouldn't work just fine. Uhhh, new Corvette, anyone? The key is understanding the benefits and weaknesses of the material. One of your biggest problems (as mentioned) will be the welding...so don't. For years, airplanes and race cars have been built from aluminum sheet using riveting and bonding methods. This would allow you to make use of several excellent alloys which are not welding-freindly. Structural aluminum also likes simple shaping, so your design should eliminate as many curved areas as possible.

Most all modern truck frames are made of aluminum extrusion, and they are expected to last literally millions of miles. Yes, they are thick and heavy, but it's all relative to weight and load.

 

I too have thought about making a frame out of aluminum. I am currently considering one for a ultra light weight banger speedster build. I also work with aluminum on pretty much a daily basis. My biggest concern is not strength, but the inebidability of cracking.

I got a call at the shop a while back, a woman owns a newer Impala with a cracked subframe. Those are aluminum, and yep its breaking right at the welds. I had to turn down the job, to much liability

Like exwestracer brought up, riveting could be the solution.

 

I really don't understand why the frame would make any difference on it being a HAMB friendly hotrod or not . I see people doing frame swaps with a modern frame all the time so why would what you are doing be any difference . Personally I think it will look really great ! But that's just my opinion !
Go for it and post the pictures !

Retro Jim