Hi Race Car Bob. The problem with older tranny's is the glue that the tracks are preped with today. It puts a lot more strain on the drive train than even a heavy car on the street does. When you dump the clutch on these preped tracks the old tranny's usually can't take it. And the thing about the old auto's is they would be hard to find, and the old parts in them might be hard to find. Joe
I've got another question: Would you rather build your own, or would you buy an existing chassis? I really should sell mine now, because I need the money now. I can always build (or buy) another later.
Joe.. They can hook one of those 1000hp Glides to almost any thing these days..And almost any auto can be built to hold 500hp..BUT,,, I'm sticking with my 4 speed muncy..
I'm gonna start with the hydro and go from there. At 3.82 for the first gear it should be a tire smoking ordeal. I'm going to start collecting the odds and ends for the stick but want to just get it going for now. One bad thing about living in BFE (North East Oregon)not alot of local tracks to choose from. Around here it's NHRA or back roads.
Gentlemen, Perhaps this'll rankle some ....... such is life. Not in any specific response but in general ............ I have to take issue with something that seems to've gone assumed by many of you but not directly addressed. I've read over and over the phrase "pop the clutch" and I recall it well from other kids back in high school. It's emblematic of a deeper attitude I'll cover in a moment. What I first need to say is that it's one of the biggest misnomers in the history of this auld sport. One didn't "pop" the clutch unless you were truly enchanted by small bits of various metals below your car, it certainly wasn't a reliable way to the traps. Ask those who got caught up in a fever to "smoke'em" or "stripe the street" how many driveline components they purchased. What you did do was heel & toe the gas and brake pedals with your right foot while using your left to manage the clutch. The object for staging was to keep the driveline loaded against the brakes enough to avoid shock loading it (at times to smithereens) on launching. The object once underway was to feed in it at a rate just an RCH below your traction point so as to avoid wasting the race on spinning tires. Often in the lower classes this was made somewhat easier a skill by utilization of the car's parking brake. Before long this was facilitated by the adoption of a hand managed brake addition, thus assigning these three functions to three limbs rather than two for racing purposes. Eventually these were dubbed "line-locks", after the retail product of that title. On early "rail Jobs" it was simpler to use the same lever for braking as well and delete the pedal, thus when slingshots were devised they came about with the system already tried and proven. Nor were early slingshots exempt from the clutch management skills needed. "Smoke runs" were a short lived (albeit fondly remembered) period between the human management of clutches and the mechanical management of same (ie. "slipper clutches" and slushpumps) that was allowed by tire advancements at the time. Even though turning the skills over to the machinery via those two devices one still does not "pop" the clutch, even today. Re-learning and developing that skill would solve many of the driveline problems bewailed here. And here, my point .......... That skill, applied to HAMBsters, is one of the tenets in the creation of the HA/GR class to begin with. We seek to re-create the concepts, the problems and the skills (and thus the fun) needed to drag race at the turn of the '50s (albeit with pre '63 equipment reasonably available today as was '30s & '40s equipment then). Anything else is something more modern that looks like a "rail job" but doesn't race like one. We have no problems with that, it just isn't what we're doing. If you don't get it, or don't enjoy it, and want to do it another way, no sweat, just don't call it HA/GR. Because if it isn't the whole thing then it wasn't HA/GR up front. Ask Lee (of Team Twirlin'), he's done it both ways and he gets it. He's chosen the way it was rather than merely the way it looked. I honestly think the "convertible class" ideas so far addressed may well prove to be the wisest and best response to the N(o) H(onest) R(acing) A(llowed) problem on the Left Koast. Wish to hell I'd thought of it. And for those bugged by my diatribe, all it's really saying is that HA/GR's much more than just the look of the car. The SDRA gentlemen get it and respect it, they don't call it what it isn't. And I think far more of that action than I do of those wishing to change what it is to suit their own views. But then, who the hell am I ............... ps. Esfoder (and others), build it with the slush for now as you said, refine it when you can. It's about getting out there and having the experience, and the fun. Nobody says it can't be attained in stages. Or better still, build it convertible (still wish I'd thought of that).
Well said Old6, I would have probably had a lot less finesse in how I would have worded it, but then again, I'm the one who put ten trannys on the street in one year back in the '60s. It's taken me many years to mellow to this point.
HI, Ive been thinking of building one and live on the left coast. The auto part has peaked my interest as good sticks are getting hard to come by for early stuff and adapters arent cheap. If the rules state pre 62 and autos were present, whats the differance. Not to stire trouble since I dont have a car yet.
So, everyone with a double hoop roll bar should take HA/GR off their "rails"? It's a HA/GR rules violation. I agree they should be stick shifts. It's part of the charm of the class and one of the last remaining ways of capturing that "old time drag racing feeling". By the way, by 1962 the starting line technique for one C/Gas Willys was to hold 5-6,000 RPM and "pop" the clutch as fast as possible. Al Tschida would have side stepped the clutch except the pedal pressure was so high it was impossible to do it. It was hard to break a 3/4 ton truck floater rear end or an E & R clutch and flywheel. A T-10 4 speed would last a season. The car won the Indy Nationals once. Just pointing out that "popping the clutch" was a valid technique in some cases.
FYI, just noticed a post on the main board. Dick Kraft, builder-driver of "The Bug" dragster has died. Rest in peace Mr. Kraft. Long live the spirit of the Bug!
Obviously the dichotomy of 1950 concepts and practices carried out with 1962 parts remains incomprehensible to some. Hardly news ......... Reminiscent of attempting to explain a CZ to a civvie.
I would hope that we can see that the stick vs. auto issue is strickly HA/GR vs. SDRA. The cars are similar by the fact that they run pre 1962 engines with no modern help. Some of us just can't afford the cost of replacing parts. I know that driving can keep or break parts. Up in Kansas City I felt sorry for Dwight when he was driving because he had the fastest car but he knew he would blow the trans if he shifted fast. That meant he lost every race. So we can go out and play or we can race. We can always have the spirit of the Bug but the race is what we go out there for. I guess I have been a racer all my life and I want to compete under a set of rules that my budget can afford. When I sold my 58 Chev the money was supposed to build the car and race for 2 years. I built the car and raced for one year and still ran out of money at the end. I can run a stock engine, stick trans and never win a race or I can run an engine that would have been built in 1957 and run an auto in SDRA and win once in awhile. We are similar in concept we are not the same. So if you put an automatic in it then it is a SDRA car and if we go to the HAMB Nationals we run dragster class not HA/GR class. That's OK Roy
Sorry I misunderstood your essay on "Pop the clutch". You know so much and I guess I didn't learn a thing in 53 years of building cars and drag racing as long ago as 1956. Obviously the dichotomy of building a 1950' race car and using an engine that didn't exist then and could have been built as late as the 70's is lost on some. In addition, much later driveline parts find their way onto these things. All HA/GR's are mere approximations of what was. Look at the picture of Dick Kraft racing shirtless, helmetless, without a roll bar and tell me that's what you are capturing. No, there are HA/GR rules, track rules, sanctioning body rules and just plain common sense that have created what is, compared to what was. I love and share your passion for early drag racing. I was at Indy for the Nationals from the first year until 1977. I helped build and run competitive Gas Class cars. Right now I have a running Anglia, a sbc powered Crosley and 6 other running hot rods all home built by me. I'm 68 and show no signs of slowing down. I am going to finish my HA/GR in a manner that adheres to as many of the HAMB rules as possible, with the caveat the I must do what needs to be done to run it on the local NHRA dragstrips. If you find that offensive, then I'll not write HA/GR on it.
I think the old salts missed the point to the question. I would have to say the answer is yes they would. And if your only running to have fun like so many say they are who gives a shit what kind of tranny is in the car? If you want it equal out the field then go to a weight to C.I. rule. Maby you should rename the class play by our rules or go pound sand up your ass/gas rail. We have an expression in the military excusses are like assholes everybody has one. If somebody wants to run the type of car that you are then why not let them? I mean is this a car race or a sailing club? I might not win any friends by saying this but so be it. I've earned the right to speak my mind.
I get the class being 50's tech. They had autos then and raced them. Now to split hairs on 50's tech, I see cars that have late model front ends and rear mount motors. If I can find a good stick Id run one. Ive raced sticks and know thier limits saftey wise, also know how fun they are.
I think he's at the Roadster Show. Guy's, I have nothing against automatics and I believe if you want to build a HAGR with one I wouldn't hold it against you. The chance of any number of us gettin together for a National Championship are prettttttty slim Go with what you can run local and enjoy, if by chance we do end up at Mokan they will have a category for us. I for one would enjoy seeing your build on this forum. There are just a few of us that (Ryan included) that like the rules the way they are. Put an auto in that baby and lets roll!
I'll add that if you are the first one in your area (which you probably will be) you can use the HA/GR Rules as a guideline and adapt them as you see fit.
a simple yes on no was all that was required . was not wanting to change the rules. rules say that car owners vote on them . that was agreed on in 2005. that how the hornet got voted out ,the other 2 teams could not outrun them so they voted them out. but Ryan threw them a curve he grandfathered us in for a year . for what is worth.things i have noticed over the past 3 years about the sticks. rpm to high crow hops ,light flywheel crow hops to much air in tries .solid front end crow hops even worse to strong frt spring same thing.needs some give up front.early style trannys will break quickly .I think the lateter model ford top loader may be the best bet.if you try slipping the clutch it stinks bad by the 4 run. 2b and cowboy bob have had the best results VHT is the culprit and then there is shifting problem. my finger is tired now so i will sign off.
It's never that simple I think the participation in this thread is great, I see a couple of new names
Gee mudflap we saw the same things / \ / \ . Did you see the car at Tulsa that would dribble all four wheels at launch. They were high enough off the ground that you could slide a 4x4 under them. I'll bet that was thrilling.
Hooo-ee! I think Ryan may well be laughing his ass off ....... Gentlemen, my simple point seems to've gotten swamped in my own verbosity. I apologize for that, I'm far too wordy under full steam. I'll try more succinctly ............ Aspect one; My own goal is the enjoyment and re-creation of the style of "rail job" drag racing enjoyed in and about 1950. I employ equipment that's available that reasonably reflects the technology typically on strips in 1950. My engineering reflects uncommon, but not unknown, drag strip engineering typical in 1950. Aspect two; That is what I get out of HA/GR. It's a statement of my opinion, an argument of my "case". I haven't the position, nor would I assume it, to dictate what it means to anyone else, I have far too much respect for other people. I state it for nothing more than reference. Take it as no more than what it is, because that's all it is, and all it could be in a venue such as this. There are, will be and should be other interpretations of the concept, as there were so many interpretations of what was first called rock & roll. Take the chips off your shoulders, grow some hide and build what turns your cranks. And I honestly thank you for your opinions, I enjoy reading'em and I take no offense. The "But then, who the hell am I ........ " (from my whine) is sincere, not snide. ps. It's good to see the passionate interest too.
You know if I ever do win that lottery I'm going to buy a bunch of plane tickets and we can all have a weekend together just talking about our passion for these type of cars. I think that when we sit in front of these keyboards we have a problem expressing our selfs. Most of my time I try to say something that is really meaningfull and I come off like a horses behind. I know we all have the interest of this hobby at heart and I am very thankful that Ryan has given us a place that we can talk to each other no matter where we are in the world. Given that this is a sport that caters to the average lowbuck person the chance of us ever getting together without financial help is remote. 2B and Cowboy Bob are the roving ambassadors for these cars and they put in long trips to do it. They are the ones who put forth the good will wherever they go. That is why I believe if we could look in each others eyes when we talk we would understand each other much better. I would give my left nut to be able to travel around the country and race at different tracks but as always it is the lack of money that plagues us all. I will paraphase Will Rogers here by saying that I never met a person who raced these cars that I didn't like. Roy
Hey Old6.. Ya'll gots two mush of that book larnen..K.I.S.S hehehe.. All kiddin aside.. I feel like Rocky does. Im fighting my shifting linkage and the clutch linkage,, Thats true, A glide would be much simpler..But what the hay.. I'm stuck on the stick....
Good morning ThingyM, How close are you to doing your first burnout? Let us know so that I can add it to the list on the burnout rollcall. I can edit it and add yours. I bet that 194 can turn some RPM and with a muncie it should be a lot of fun. On my first day to run mine and do a burnout, a friend of Mudflap's saw me run it down the street, and I thought I was invisible. Some times it's a small world. Joe
Good morning Joe.. I hope to do my first burn out in about a month.(hope I hope).I'm still waiting on some parts I ordered. But have been asured that they will be here soon.. Yea I'm planning on turning the lil'6 about 6000rpm. since it is a 7 main bearing block. I think it will be able to do that with no problem. I can hardly wait...Thanks Joe.. Dick M...
Joke of the day I had a engine instructor in the service that stated "The easiest way to remember the firing order on any I-6 engine is 15 too young 36 is too old and 24 is just right" (women) This is not going to work for much longer for me? Dusty
well we have heard from everybody but the potential car builders .one thing which I think has slowed this wonderful concept down is fact that you cant dial 1-800 which is the part Ilike. but one thing for sure we must have more car count what say you
I say-- more car count is fine, but not at the sacrifice of the core intent of the class. But honestly; WHY do we need more car count? So we can be more fully recognized by the NHRA, and subsequently be molded to their vision? No thanks. What we need isn't easier access to the class, it's education for those who don't understand it and therefore wish to change it. There's been discussion here in the past about what happens when a "hardcore subculture" opens to the mainstream (Punk, Surfing, Bikers, Skaters, et al) and I'd rather not take HA/GR there. I think you're absolutely right, not being able to 1-800 these cars together has slowed the car count, or turned off some folks. (My own progress could be cited as an example, however, if 1-800 was the only choice, I'd be fucked, as I couldn't afford to play that way.) I think that's GREAT!!!! I don't think this class is appropriate for every broke dude who wants to try a "full race" car, and our rules HELP keep it that way.
The Jalopy Journal
