Well it would help my case out alot. Not having to much luck so far trying to find a manual tranny actually clutch to fit behind my Hudson. I'm not saying no auto is a deal breaker but thats what the motor came with in 54? The Hudson was very smooth but not up to racing standards.I would rather not have a wet clutch come apart in my lap thank you.Pluse the dual range is heavier than hell. It would be no advantage trust me. I'm thinking of putting the auto in it anyway and changing later when other options are avaliable. Just my thoughts Dusty
I would say that a glide or a th-350 would be a streach but if it was an option when the engine was made why not. I do under stand the whole racing the man as well as the machine though. And I'll do what it takes to comply. Just take a little longer to get things figured out..
Mixed feelings.... Stick makes it more authentic and fun to drive. Around here, stock car land, manuals are picked over and pricey. I wouldn't run a manual setup that I didn't think was reliable and safe. Been figuring at least a grand for trans, scattershield, flywheel, clutch. As a side note, don't think I'd run an engine that a scattershield was not available for. Part of the fun would be letting my bro and maybe a couple buddies drive it. Not gonna happen w/a stick. Have a Powerglide in my "someday" pile. I'm sure not trying to change anyone's mind because I really respect what you guys are doing here, but these are the things I think about when I think about actually building one.
As has been said many times before. If you want to run an automatic, the SDRA boys have no problem with it. If you want to run HA/GR a stick is required. As has happened in the past and will continue to happen in the future, people will break manual transmissions when abusing them when drag racing, but that's all part of the game. I personally broke many behind a stock '50 Chevy six back in the '60s, but that was mostly caused by technique or lack there of. If the stock parts held up to hard usage in a 3000 plus pound car they will generally last pretty well in a car of half or less weight. It has a lot to do with the severity of the application of power and many times results are caused by old worn out parts being subjected to missed shifts and 6000 rpm launches with a side step of the clutch pedal. Many of the manual transmissions used in these cars have been used in far higher horsepower applications in heavier cars, but given the proper technique, a hotrodder can break a 2" tool steel ball. Just an observation.
I'm with Tom, I say a stick is part of the deal. so then there are those who say "hey, just split it and run a stick class and an auto class." so, little by little the original intent and the original set of "guidelines" get eroded away by watering them down. I realize the SDRA already does autos, and I realize one of the first cars WAS an auto. BUT----Where does the line between HA/GR and "other" get drawn? Two hoop cages in the name of safety? Autos in the name of $$ or ease? Radials in the name of $$ or safety? Shall I go on? If I remember right this is supposed to be about vintage dragsters, not hollow generic racers in the name of nostalgia. (kinda like "nostalgia" top fuel) this horse ain't dead yet?
We had the 'wet' clutch re-lined with a standard type clutch disc when we raced Hudsons back in the 60's--had no problems at all.
Current "nostalgia" top fuel is to drag racing like the space shuttle is to vintage aircraft. It too moves through the sky, but the true concept is so far removed that it's hard to see the parentage. The trouble is, people keep trying to breed the horse and keep expecting it to continue the bloodline. If you want to build a Curtiss Jenny you should use wood and fabric and not expect it to go into orbit, because that is not what it was designed for. Many vintage aircraft don't really fly well by today's standards, but to those who understand them, they are a far better way than the space shuttle to experience the joy of flight. So was born the concept of the HA/GR and it seems like people keep trying to to turn it into rocket science. Just my thoughts and all may not agree, but that's how I feel. Rant off, you can now resume the normal programming.
Guys, it is not that a big deal to adapt just about any transmission to just about any engine. Your local, competent machinist could build one. Probably more cost effective to buy one from a firm that specializes in that stuff. Try www.wilcap.com. They might have your combination on the shelf. I wish we could bury this controversy. Early-style dragsters with automatic transmissions are already allowed to run at the HAMB Drags. They currently run in the Dragster Class. Go ahead and build them any way you want. I would like to have enough cars to run heats to qualify for the "A" or the "B" Main race. This would still be heads up racing, but the rails would fall into natural groups or "brackets". This is pretty much what the SRDA boys are doing and it works out fine. At this point, I'm more concerned with the big sixes than the trans choice. Four of the last six cars completed (that I can think of) had 302 GMC's and looks like there are a couple of big Hudsons in the works. I think an "A" and a "B" trophy is pretty much mandatory to keep flatheads and the little sixes alive.
In 1958 I had a 40 Ford that had a flathead in it and I had to run C gas. It was not in the least competitive because I had to run against 265 Chev powered cars. A friend of mine had a 1957 270 HP that he ran in Super Stock class, it ran about 96 mph at about 14.30 et. I got the itch to run that class and so I ordered a 1958 Biscayne with a 315 HP 348 cu. in. engine. When I got it I took it to San Gabriel with a set of cutouts and it turned a blazing 94 mph with a 14.70et. Super Stock in those days was just that stock except headers were allowed. That meant that you ran 8.00X14 bias ply tires. I pulled the engine out and found several things wrong and took the parts to Don Nicholson to tell me what needed to be done. He balanced the rotating assembly and Earl Wade did the valves. I got a new cam from Service Chevrolet and put it all together. It went 100mph @ 14.13 first trip down the Riverside race track. I raced that car for 2 years and was competitive even against 1959's and their 4 speeds. Most races were won by 1 or 2 feet. I was able to compete because the rules were tight. By 1963 you had to have big bucks to compete in Super Stock. HA/GR with a stick is great but I have chosen the SDRA route because it is less costly to race and that is super important at this stage of my life. I tried the stick for several months and it was costing me $200 to $500 each trip to Tulsa in broken parts. I put the Glide in and put gas and water in and race. So it is a no brainer for me. As to the double roll bar I just want to make sure I don't get to hurt if I roll the thing. Someday one of these cars is going to kick a rod out through the lights and somebody is going to be on their head. Roy
I might be wrong but in 52 or 53 how many of your favorite slant six's were on the street? NONE? My hydro was.I know it's my fault for picking the power plant that is different than the norm. Why don't I go and get a main stream comb so I can look and sound like everyone else with a slant 6 or a Gimmy? Wouldn't that be great Hell the extra $1500 it taks to put the stick shift behind the motor would almost finnish out the rest of the car. I'm still gonna do it. For some reason I thought this was about cheap fun or something like that?
Actually the correct question would be; How many manuals were in "rail jobs" at the strips in '50 and how many slushpumps were in'em then? As to the under square, upright, in-line sixes designed in the late '50s and produced on into the '70s with few changes, that case has been made and justified (ad nauseum) already. I do appreciate and sympathize with your specific problem but recognize (as you do, of course) that it is indeed your own problem. I wish I had an easy answer for you, I'd really love to see even more variety in engines than we're already building. You obviously appreciate the reasoning behind the rule so my questions concern possible alternatives. You quote $1500 for a stick, is that for a Hudson set-up? What would it take to mate a later bell, clutch and gearbox combo from anything else to your mill? The interface is nothing more than the pilot bearing, flywheel and bell mount, not exactly string theory and it'd be unique as hell to boot. And as Rand Man noted, there may even be kits for some of the more common conversions should you not wish to scratch or bash it.
In '52 or '53 how many rails were running hydros? If you go back about 5 posts the clutch problem has been addressed. Don't blame it on your choice of engine. As for cheap fun, it's all how you look at it and how you chose to build it. I chose to go with a set of T Ford rails, a bunch of scrounged and donated parts and all 218 cubic inches of a '34 Dodge Flathead 6. Will I be competitive against a big cube Jimmy or Hudson, we'll have to wait and see. Will I be grinning and having fun? You can bet on it. There is no "cheap racing", just some folks who decide to be frugal and have fun with what they build at home, which is what this class is all about. To paraphrase the idea as Ryan posted a while back the goal isn't equal or cheap racing, the goal is that there will be guys out there "banging gears, with grins on their faces". Like anything that starts out as a simple concept, there will always be those who for whatever reason tend to complicate it. The rules are only one simple page long, and the goal isn't now or was it ever to become a mainstream "nostalgia drag class". The goal is guys building at home, in the spirit of how drag racing was born, and running old style heads up racing. Run what ya brung, beat me if ya can...and when we go back into the pits come on over and share a hot dog and Dr. Pepper and compare notes on who's cheeks have the biggest cramps from all of the grinning. Personally, if it could be done, I'd love to see it go back to having a guy with a flag out front sending the cars off, or at least a single no yellow lights green light with random timing so that it put the driver back into the equation even more. Can we make this thing be as it was envisioned? Only if we care enough and believe in the true "Spirit of The BUG".
Hey just speaking what's on my mind. I'll play by the rules. I like having a 328 C.I. Hudson as my problem. Will you? Got the rails will shoot some pics asap. Dusty
If I am building a car to potentially sell, it has to have a automatic. If I was to keep it, it would have a stick.
Having been involved in many forms of racing thru the years the KISS principle has come to mean a lot to me. The simpler you make something; the easier it is to work on. The less you have to work on it, the more time you have for FUN and COMRADRY. Now that I’ve gotten enough years over my belt, I’m ready to have the fun. And when my Son got old enough to compete in this sport we talked about these cars. The problem of finding an Eng., Clutch, and Trans, that we figured we could use, that would not require a lot of maintenance, was soon narrowed down to any most any Eng. and an automatic. Now before you jump on me. We’ve been to Tulsa and MoKan and watched them run. We’ve seen the stick cars jump up & down and dance on the starting line. That has got to be hard on equipment and driver. We also watched the cars with auto’s launch without all the stress on equipment. That equates to longer parts life. More time for between rounds fun. When talking to the fans they couldn’t tell you which cars were running what Trans. They just saw cars racing and drivers having fun. I DON’T like the idea of clutches, flywheels, or trans. coming apart between my feet, or any drivers’ feet. It can sure take the fun out of your life. Having said this, I don’t think the extra weight of the auto would be a hindrance when you look at equipment life. Even a bone stock auto should be able to handle what these cars are capable of putting down with the 6” tire rule. Remember they also consume some power. These factors should be an equalizer to the stick. SOOOO.. I’m in favor of the use of the AUTOMATIC.
I wrestled with this issue for many months. I've got a couple 292 Chevy 6's and a race ready Powerglide along with a glass Fiat body. So I had the option of building a period Altered too. Since I won't be within 300 miles of another HA/GR it made my decision to use a stick shift even more difficult. Heck, I might never get to MoKan either. So, as a "Lone Ranger", I really have little need to conform to the rules of HA/GR. The desire to experience what is was like to run a dragster in the early days of drag racing is what tipped the scale in the direction of building a stick shift car HA/GR rules car (except for the cage area). The fire suit, full face shield helmet and 5 point belts will take away from the T-shirt, blue jeans, and wind in the face sensation the original racers experienced. But, you can't have it all, I guess. If I break parts, I can always change to an automatic. Likewise, I can give it a go with slicks, a turbocharger or anything else I want to do in the future. In fact, I'm trying to design my Hambster so that my Fiat body could be easily fitted someday. These are reasons why I'm building the chassis to be legal to 10:00 seconds. If there was a herd of Hambsters in my neighborhood, I'd never consider changing mine.
I've been lurking for a while, and thinking about building a car , I've even went as far as mocking one up. I guess the question I have an maybe Toymaker can answer this, being that he's had both, how hard would it to run both? I,ve been thinking about running at the local track with an auto than converting to a 3 speed if and when I would run an HA/GR event. Rob
Well personally... Since the rules were written, stipulating "NO AUTOMATICS? I feel that it means exactly what it says.. Oh yea, It would be much easier to install a glide or something like that. But it says what it says.. I'm wrestling with my clutch and shift linkage now. But when it is finished I'll be one happy camper and proud of my achievment..My other car has an auto in it, So if I want to drive an automatic, I'll get that one out...JMHO...
I have run at the HAMB drags the last two years with a stick. The only problem I have had was that the car three speeds do not hold up behind my motor. Other people have run them with no problems. I wish someone had told me that my car was jumping up and down off the line, I sure can not tell it. I am in the process of helping my son build another HA/GR, it will be another slant with a three speed. I have a pile of autos that I could run, but the rules clearly state no autos. If you want to run with the other sanction, have at it, if you want to run with the HA/GR's, build it with a stick----end of story. Robert
We built our car "Close Tolerance" (Too Small) making it hard to go back to an auto, but with the right design it wouldn't be a problem. We ran the automatic at first because it's all we had. We had a good time, BUT ask Lee the difference in driving it With the Auto it was a Sunday drive but now with the 3 SPD Manual there is much more to do in the cockpit = BIG GRIN and EXCITEMENT. I have an 11 second Comet I run with a Super T-10 and I LOVE IT! I have nothing against automatics and if you have a place to run GREAT, when we went to the Manual we did narrowed down our driver possibilities. The Manual transmission rule equalizes the class, with more driver responsibilities and possibilties of mistakes. Hell I already BLEW 3rd gear (damn missed shift), BUT I can fix it unlike an automatic which I have no desire to learn. If that would of happened racing a slower car (I wish), guess what, the slower car would of won. You want to see price escalation sp?, wait 'til you start getting serious with an automatic. To answer the original question........NO. The Manual Trans was part of the appeal. Rocky
And now another wrench in the works... I too have decided to build a Hambster "IN THE SPIRIT" since i doubt if i will ever get west of I 95., We have a fair amount of Geezer Fests here in the tri state, And we already run our 72 chevelle at them, This is for me, THE DAD, I will be using 4 cyl pinto power with a powerglide convertered to direct drive with external dump, as close to a clutch turbo as you can get, For those who plan to compete in the class, how does this idea fit into the stick only ruling since there is no converter but does have a clutch pedal and requires manual shifting. Thanks for the opportunity to get in the way back machine.
Toymaker, After I thought about it, I think I'll go with the stick , just because it will be too hard to drive the car with out the same type of set up each time. Also your car rocks!!! I may add to the Ford count hopefully soon. Rob
Do you need to use the "clutch" to shift it? Can you miss a shift? What's next.......anyone got a Lenco they want to run?
Interesting idea. Assuming a Bug style car ...... It'd take a flywheel to slip joint swap at the least. Driveshaft as well if the slush's longer or shorter than the box. Leave both the pedal and the kickdown mostly in (clips on pop-out drag links) and mount each lever on its case. For convenience, vertical bolts on cross member, bolt-on cage (or at least the part over the box), scatter shield & body and lift-out tunnel so you could do it from the top. Hell, the swap could take under an hour if well engineered for it right from the start, could be done in the field if desired and would certainly address the bracket/HAMBster problem for those so inclined. An honest multi class/venue car for those on a budget. As Rob noted, done right the worst thing would be forgetting which you were driving. Or perhaps mistaking which meet you were attending. You should also have convertible lettering for SDRA, NHRA & HA/GR, maybe flip-downs like hazardous load signage? It'd save you having to explain it to each and everyone. Come on, that last bit was funny. Fantasy, you'll have what sounds like a fun car, just not a HAMBster.
I wasn't trying to convert anyone to an Auto. Only stating my preference and what lead me to that end. The Hornet was the first running HA/GR built under the original rules, when an Auto was a legal Trans. After the first year of competition, the other teams complained about an unfair advantage, the Auto. was outlawed. With that little bit of history out of the way, lets get to the important part. It makes no difference which you prefer. What does make a difference is CAR COUNT. Just build it and bring it to the track, where ever you live. You will have fun! p.s. The Hornet has over 200 passes on their Trans.
You know what we are doing here is just like they did in the 50's. We are all local people trying to run our cars at a local track or the closest one. I like what Bob Hindman says about these cars, they are cars that a person who is working for an hourly wage can build. All the cars that I've seen run are fairly equal in build except that some have automatic and some have sticks. I have less that $300 in my automatic so it is the saving of money for my reasoning not to get an edge on anyone. If we all get together at MOKAN once a year we can divide up into auto and stick groups and race each other. I for one love the SDRA because they can run autos because if I wouldn't have been able to I would be out of money and would have parted out the dragster. I believe that if you make less than 200hp you can make a stick live but if you start making more than that you start blowing parts. When I ran at Tulsa the last time with a stick my wife took a movie of my runs. When I popped the clutch the rear tires jumped off the ground by at least 3 inches. Now all of this is not to try for a rule change of the HA/GR rules but to try and tell why some of us went the route we did. I love racing these cars and the guys in Tulsa are great. I even have my house for sale so I can move closer to Tulsa. Roy
AH HA, you have seen thru my charade, the circlematic glide is dirt cheap, light wght, and can be an easy 1 hr swap to a 3 speed sag. I love the look and feel of the style, but just doing test shots will get boring in a hurry, so i am attempting to make the car "multi class' while maintaing the look and spirit, as far as the NHRA tracks, slower that n 11.50 will not require any equipt that would take away from the intent, c'mon who can argue with some safety. I plan to set it up with a bit of Transformer in it, without pulling the bug tin, just drape an austin body on with a 1/2 dozen dzus and toss a big set of dopey slicks out back for an econo altered flair. soon as we get a lil thaw i am heading over to my brothers place in PA for a scavenger hunt weekend. That state is easy pickens. As far as the lenco, I wouldnt think that falls into affordable fun catagory.
I was thinking about this subject again , what would be wrong with running only automatics that were available before 1962 as per the engine rule . I mean as it looks now (I,m not an expert ) some of the current cars are running drive trains that where not available before 1962 ie trannies and rear ends. I think it would be cool to see a hydro bolted behind a flat head or even a six banger . My old man and grand father were in the tranny business for over 30 years going back to '58 and they built and experimented with auto's for racing ( Stockcar and Drag). The only drawback I think would be the money that it would cost to build,but some of you older fellas probably know a few tricks that can save you some $$$. Just thinking out of the box . Rob
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