It seems like up here in the states every few months we get another round of "why can't we run an automatic transmission" questions or some other "can't we change the rules to make me happy" bit. It seems like I haven't noticed much of this kind of stuff from the boys Down Under. How have you mates dealt with this, or is it just that you all understand the concept of the HA/GR class ? Y'all have a great bunch of cars running with lots of variety. Keep up the good work. It inspires us.
For me, it seems that rules is rules. If the rule says it must run a manual , then you use a manual.We are a little more restricted with our sports governing body,"ANDR" , we must run a six point roll cage , When I had my car tech inspected , there were a few minor issues that I had to take care of . But at the end of the day these things were only going to make my car safer , a few pounds heavier , but I figure if I want to race then I have to abide by the rules. Thats my pennys worth anyhow.
Ah yes, just what I thought. You guys understand building within the rules. I always figured if it was written in the rules, then build with that limitation, but if it's not specified, innovate to your advantage.
We do have a number of people wanting to change the rules, but the answer is the same, they (the rules) aren't changing, and we regularly explain why. People have different perspectives, and we're no out to 'embrace' people who don't want to be 'embraced', we feel theres plenty of existing classes for people to compete, and to be honest, no reason to change our perspective or rules at this point in time. HA/GR is a product of the HAMB, and where possible will try to maintain/respect its integrity where possible. Have come to appreciate that it's either understood or it's not, those that want 'other things' are encouraged to pursue them, elsewhere. Cheers, Drewfus
We recently began the task of putting 2 hampsters together and after some discussion with the fellas currently running down here and a little more talk amongst ourselves and it seems to us that the rules as written provide a great base from which to start. We find the simplicity and the integrity of the concept sufficient to work with.
AMEN.......I just can't understand all of the folks wanting to change the class. There are plenty of options for those who want to build something "different". The HA/GR class is fine like it is and if they can't understand that, it seems like no amount of explaining will help.
Change is often the result of necessity. I think one of the reasons the faster HA/GR cars changed to automatic transmissions was because it was necessary to allow them to be more competitive. Granted you can race a manual tranny HA/GR but they will never be as quick as an automatic and some of us built more powerful HA/GR cars to race. Case in point; Roy Merritt and Todd Martin both have GMC powered cars with P-glides and run in the mid 11 second range @ 115-117 mph. Our car runs 121 mph but the best ET so far is 12.10 seconds because the POS 3 speed manual causes us to be slower. So far our car is a pure HA/GR, but since we can't race competitively we will most likely change to a P-glide. I think the less powerful HA/GR cars are fine with a manual tranny but in the more powerful cars the automatic is quicker, cheaper (Roy Merritt spent $1500 on manual tranny's and couldn't make them live behind the GMC) .......and is a change required due to necessity. I'm sure a marathon runner could compete in logging boots but will never be competitive against runners in tennis shoes. The rules changed at the Indy 500. In the old days you didn't have to have roll bars or safety equipment. During the late 50's we raced an Offy midget and got pissed when the rules changed and required a roll bar. Other than the 10 commandments rules aren't cast in stone and changes are allowed/required out of necessity. As usual, I'm sure I'll catch hell and get a ration of shit for opening my mouth but apparently some of us see a logical, cost effective rules change that would makes sense. Case in point is the change to the double-loop roll bar. Not in the "spirit" of the original "Bug" but necessary for safety. Now are those cars still pure HA/GR cars? Are we allowed to make some changes but not others? I'm confused, as I'm sure others are, especially new guys thinking about building an HA/GR car. "FOLLOW THE RULES" to keep the cars "pure" ..................except?? Ron
!st point.......as for the change being brought on due to necessity, what has happened there is the guys who saw this "necessity" now have cars that are performing far beyond what the class was envisioned as, the end result will be that as the speeds increase and the ETs decrease they will see increased scrutiny from the tech and sanctioning bodies and people will end up going the same way the "Econo-dragster" class went, more expense and less fun. 2nd point......."logging boots, tennis shoes", bullshit, they all are running 6" bias ply treaded tires so this point is invalid. 3rd point.......roll bars and safety equipment complaints can go to the 13th floor and jump out the window into the parking lot. Anyone who wants to build a car without these items won't be able to run in today's environment and is stupid to consider it anyway. If you have a $2.00 head buy a $2.00 helmet. 4th point.......see 3rd point! 5th point.......if you haven't noticed, the government is doing their best to change The Ten Commandments and your "necessity" follows the logic of youth that "it's OK to break the rules because everybody else is doing it". Comparing changes of construction design for safety like the double hoop or N(o)H(ot)R(ods)A(llowed) 6 point cage to mechanical changes like an automatic instead of a manual transmission is like saying that fuel injection is better than carburetion so why can't you run Hillborns instead of Stromberg 97s or Rochesters. It's apples and oranges. You have run a manual trans without breakage and said that you are wishing it would break so you can put a P-glide in it, to be "competitive" with the others running 'Glides when in reality there is nothing stopping you from that choice. The SDRA already accommodates your desires so where is the problem. It just seems that the attitude is we all have to get modern to be competitive. Back in the mid '60s the same thing happened with Super Stock, evolving into AF/X and that evolving into Funny Car and eventually what we ended up with is Funny Car which resembles a production car like a horse resembles an elephant, and Pro Stock which turned into a very competitive class where all you need is megabucks to play. Run whatever ya want and let those who wish to continue along the guidelines of the HA/GR rules continue along their path. If you wish to pursue the path of what "Nostalgia Top Fuel" has followed with your goals, fine, but please don't think that the HA/GR class wants to follow.
Don't change the rules. I've got a Nostalgia FED. I've also got a Nostalgia Alcohol Funny Car. I work on a Nostalgia Nitro Funny Car..... believe me when I say I've had enough of rule changes, and the whinning about NOT changing them. You guys have nailed this with HA/GR. I am building one this winter. I have too many commitments for the rest of the summer to start now. How many are on the west coast and how many races? This thing is going to be so popular, you can have a class for autos and one for mannys. No?
Christ on a crutch, I type slow! Well, anyway, here's my response ...... Nor will we ever be able to race non-HA/GR cars competitively. Duh. Ron, you don't need to justify it to anyone, nor do you need to convert anyone in order to justify it. Rebuild as an SDRA and have fun. This isn't an attack, I guess I just don't get one thing. Why are you hanging onto the HA/GR class if it isn't what you want? Why are you wasting so much energy trying to make it over when what you do want is alive and available? I think Roy and Todd're way ahead of you on this. Hell, if those were my desires I'd be there already, I've only put myself through that kind of frustration once ....... I was 22, down in Corpus Christi, hanging out at Padre Island, whining and moaning about nearly everything Texan. After a particularly coarse dissertation on the failures of gulf surf compared to SoCal's in a local bar called The Body Shop one evening, I was asked by a girl I liked quite a bit just why the hell I was in Texas if I prefered SoCal so damn much. I had no answer for'er. Li'l Bit was right, and I tucked my entire $27.00 in my pocket and headed back to SoCal on my thumb the next morning. I do miss Texas but I'm here, because it's what I want. I and others are in HA/GR because it's what we want. It isn't the same thing that you want, and I understand that. I have no need to villainize you for it and the effort of trying to communicate what it is that I get out of our class is only that effort. Nor is it in any way dumping on others' preferences. Sometimes it does get hard to tell the difference, what with the lack of intonation available on a keyboard (and some folks thin skins ) but most of the time we manage to wade through it. The one thing I hope can eventually be realized is that while we're each a seperate interpretation of the same vintage drag racing concept, there's not one damn reason we can't share a common meeting place right here. Let's face it, taken together we're still a coming wave. You can give us flak for not being racer enough and we'll give you flak for not being pure enough, and we can both give Vector' flak for being too modern. It'll be fun. And if anyone's stupid enough to give the bunch of us flak for the whole thing, well that'll be fun too. ps. I recall when those wanting slushpumps swore they were no advantage. "Our car runs 121 mph but the best ET so far is 12.10 seconds because the POS 3 speed manual causes us to be slower."
I was originally going to ignore this thread, as I felt it was only going to get ugly, but since the question was directed at us I felt compelled to answer, so I hereby apologise for adding fuel to a old flame that really is a tired topic that creates more hate then love. Ron, firstly, Im certainly not going to disagree with your points, as I not only see your point, but also agree on each item mentioned. Like anything, our biggest difference is purely that we have a ET limit of 13.5 seconds, which, for the time being is the practical pivotal reason for us why we can continue to follow the Manual perspective without destroying things. If/when (and its already happening) we have racers pushing the envelope (which is only natural, and to be expected), the practicalities/hassles/expenses that drive people to look at autos are quite deafening reasons why autos are a good thing. Luckily, were borderline, as those reasons get very loud after you start crossing that barrier, and realistically, we feel the rule is in the same category as the 6 cross plys and carbs and electrics rules etc that are there. Does this contradict the racers perspective of going fast ?.yep, and agree that the weve made alternatives/compromises in other areas so that we are allowed to race, but weve found that its either do that or sit in the stands being purists talking amongst ourselves, I dont feel weve sold our soul, but can respect peoples perspective that we have. Hypocrisy, maybe, but as weve discussed many times, either do, or dont. Note: are we all racing stock engines?, no, some are but theyre not hurting anyone, and as previously mentioned, technically, anyone that wants to go faster or race with autos etc have other existing classes (here in oz) they can compete in, so certainly dont have anything against going hard/fast with old gear should they so desire, in fact encourage people to do so, such that we have HA/GR competitors who also have significantly faster other cars, and good luck to them ..wish I did too Trust the above makes sense, as I feel were all headed in the right direction, and we have SO much more in common than different we're splitting hairs, and realistically, dont feel this thread is going anywhere good, as people will perceive what they want, and ultimately, as illustrated many times previous, people will get frustrated and say crazy crap. Bottom line, I like autos, and certainly would help with our choice of old engine, especially when theyre pushed hard, but, here in oz, we have an additional E.T. limit added via ANDRA, and whilst ever thats there, like it or not, confident that we wont have painted ourselves in a corner by the everlasting desire to go faster than before. Cheers, Drewfus
I think you solved all the problems that's been discussed when you put the E.T. minimum on the class. Run autos,manuals,clutchflites,direct drive if you want to. Run 340 inch GMC-380 inch Hudsons-Flathead V8-Flathead 6-Slant 6--Corvair-Allison-blown Studebaker flat 6 any old engine,just don't run under 13.5 or whatever. If you want to show your engineering expertise,fine,if you want to make it look like a show car,fine,if you want to build an engine that would cost the ordinary guy $10,000 fine,if you just like to hang out at the races--great--even if you're inclined to"fudge a little bit" that's O.K. too--JUST DON'T RUN UNDER 13.50-- E.T. MINIMUM WOULD TEND TO CURB THE NATURAL TENDENCIES RACERS HAVE TO "WIN AT ALL COST" MENTALITY. Solves all the safety problems from sanctioning bodies and track owner point of view,solves having to build 5-6-7000 dollar engines,(the reason most of us quit racing earlier in life) Helps people that would like to build,but do not have access to "dynos", Fab shops,machine shops,flow benches,tig welders-etc-etc If you want to put back and keep the "spirit of the class", lower the cost and keep it that way, increase the car count, eliminate the conflict between the haves and have nots, AND MOST OF ALL-KEEP THE FUN IN THE CLASS, ---LET'S ALL PUT OUR EGOS ASIDE AND DO AS OUR BROTHERS DOWN UNDER HAVE DONE AND SET AN E.T. MINIMUM. I think you hit the nail on the head when you did that, and your compadres in the U.S. could learn a lot from your thinking.
The first three cars built and raced at a HA/GR event were from the OK. ARK. area. One car, the "Hornet" out of Broken Arrow had a PowerGlide. Under the ORIGINAL rules, the automatic tranny was legal. Do to the complaining of the other racers it was outlawed. Not because it was an advantage as claimed, but because it worked and did not cause any problems. Some claimed it sliped and was an unfair advantage against there clutchs. In cars of this power to weight it was shown that they didn't need to slip. While others were fighting old manual trannys that were not capable of shifting at the Rpm's they were pushed to, or clutchs that wern't designed to be used for racing, the auto labored on. To date that same auto tranny is still in use with the replacement of only one small (cheap)piece. Those that want to put a lot of money in thier engines are welcome to, but they still have only a six inch tire to put the power to the ground. So far the tire rule has been the equalizer for both HA/GR and SDRA. Rule changes, if its not for the good of safety or the continuence of the class, I say consider what they will do to the future of the class and to car count. The SDRA has had people come to us and say "if you will change the rules to what I want I,(or they), will built a car." Most of these people don't even come to the races to see what is going on, or how much fun people are having. To those people we say "build a car, come race, then show us how these changes will benefit the program".
That makes no sense. Read the above post. Run sticks--autos--clutchflites--direct drive or a tug boat clutch-- The 6 inch tire does not equalize the difference between a 330 GMC and a flathead 6 !!! Speaking of rules changes for safety: How safe is speeds approching 125 MPH with 11.5 E.T.s on 6 inch bias or even radial tires--Solution--E.T. limit !!! Safety concerns from insurance and track owners--Solution--E.T. limit Special built and special machined engine and chassis components re: escalating costs--Solution---E.T. limit Broken parts--engines,transmissions,axles,ring and pinions etc etc 13.50 E.T.should be curb a lot of breakage from those who would like to race,but cannot afford to constantly replace all these parts. Solution E.T. limit Eliminate $10,000 - $15,000 HA/GR -- SDRA-- etc cars unless you just have to have one. (mine's bigger than your's complex)--solution--E.T. limit Rules squabbles (other than E.T. minimum no one has to change their rules) Solution---E.T. minimum The best equalizer is an E.T. limit,that way HAMBS-SDRA-ANDR--Calif.-Montana-Florida--OZ can all run their cars at anyones track. If your next thought is 'bracket racing',a car built in the TRUE SPIRIT of the class,using only things available in the 50's-'62 will be hard pressed to run 13.50 CONGRATULATIONS ANDR,YOU HAVE BEEN ABLE TO MAINTAIN THE TRUE SPIRIT OF THE CLASS SO FAR WITH THE E.T. MINIMUM. MAYBE THE OTHER "ORGANIZATIONS" WILL WAKE UP AND ADOPT YOUR WAY OF THINKING.
Again,read the post, no one wants a bracket car,I anticipated your bracket car comeback that's why I put it in your previous post. Please read everything before making a comment. You're saying the OZ group are running bracket cars,and they certainly are not. All discussions readily taken,but please read everything first.
OK, here're some answers Q7. What you propose is alive & well and called "index racing", and it's far worse (and more exclusionary) than brackets. The players build cars one or two seconds quicker than the index they intend to run and from that point forward it's a "race" (now there's a misnomer) to see who can guesstimate their ET most accurately without breaking out. They typically run within a few hundredths of the index and it's the only way you can play that game to win. They call it "running the number". That's where the OZ boys have come now, as they've already pointed out. Without a change they'll soon be effectively just another index class. Oh, and their ET limit is given them by their sanctioning body, not their choice. If you want to limit the class ET that's a noble, and likely a wise effort given the nature of some of the builds. Attempting it by fiat however, is nothing more than repeating historic mistakes. You need to do it via physics if you want to keep the competitive spirit alive as we do, and it needs to work reasonably unsupervised at that level. As an example; dropping the tread width would be one realistic way. NASCAR's restrictor plate attempt was well concieved, in spite of being stupidly applied. NHRA's own fuel ban was very effective 'til money forced it's recall. Non-supercharged and gas classes are today a living testament to the concept's viability. Our classes utilize exactly that in the carbs only rule. SDRA found the validity of it in the quad exclusion rule. The fact that an already accepted tenet of our class is the tire rule gives us a reasonable handle to cheaply, effectively and fairly control exactly what you address. It would even be entirely (pun intended) practical to specify a given make and model tire at some point in the future. Annoying, but it'd have the advantage of working. There are other workable physics based avenues of approach to the problem of course, but most are harder to enforce and less acceptable to those actually running. Lastly; repetitious hammering of a phrase into my skull won't further your case, my skull's just too thick. Sorry, I can seldom resist an easy joke.
Amen brother. We have to change the roll bar for safety, so, it seems reasonable to update other things. I feel the REAL spirit of the bug is not in the build, but what it inflicts in others, as in the spectators. Keeping the spirit alive in the 20 of us here (hiding in the back of the HAMB) is NOT the same as putting the spirit in front of potentially several thousand people. Those people see old vintage car... that's it. And that's what we want to put in front of them. This isn't a movement, it's 20-30 guys over 4 years, most of which happened 2 years ago... Let's keep it in perspective. I like the 13.50 idea. kind of ties in with our personal theory to use "slightly" newer engines (that look right to the crowd) that have 20-50 more horsepower to get the car fast enough to not require $5000 worth of upgrades on a shitty engine to get a decent ride. Hmm, stock engine with 105hp and $4000 worth of upgrades and months of your time to make 150hp, OR, stock engine with 150hp, bought it for $150 and leave it alone... same end result, 13.50 pick your path. Maybe what's been missing from the HA/GR class is a simple index number. Negates a LOT of arguing. A finite number that works with every tire combination, every number of cylinders and transmissions. What's it take, 120-130hp to run a 13.50 in a 1500 pound car? I like the 13.50 idea. Once we are all there, it's a REAL heads up drag race. THAT, is old school. I'm in for adding 13.50 to the class. not to change the rules or the spirit, but as a refining and equalizing rule that should have perhaps been there anyway. It's "possible" THAT is what has been missing.
I'd add most often .... And yes, there'll be various iterations of the concept as this thing grows and sorts itself out. There always are in something new. VHS & Beta, Ford & Chevy, Curtis & Lockheed, ad nauseum. And the already working variations, taken together as the concept, already number more than ten.
With all of this variety....... Why don't we have anyone building a "Blown Fuel Flatliner/Vintage Dragster? There must be room for the BFF/VD class in all of this.
SDRA and HA/GR rules have thier differences,Yes I know the trans. The other differences were made to be able to race more than once a year and at our local track(s). We encourage anybody with a HA/GR to come and race with us. We race to have fun, but there is still some competition, and plenty of passes down the strip. After all isn't that what it's all about.
Yes. It's a shame more folks don't realize that concept. Seems like the fun gets forgotten too much these days.
Don't forget the $500.00 challenge between the two groups for the August 21st Tulsa and the 22nd MoKan races. Money, money, money. Fun, fun, fun. Step right up, take your chances, ring the bell(?), win the big prize. At least come have some fun with it. OK, so I didn't work on the midway. I gave it my best shot.
Been 4 years and dwindling build numbers and 20 guys... I don't know that "popular" is the right word. 13.50 would allow it, and simultaneously negate it. kinda cleverly works out. ALSO, this whole 13.50 thing is the LEAST of my worries. I've been nurturing a show quality lawn for over 5 years now. I've developing a crab grass problem over the last 6 weeks and it's KICKING MY ASS!!!!... WTF?!
I love both classes and concepts. We're willing to do whatever we can to help/support both efforts until we can get into the mix. I really see it like this, flathead/vintage engines running 220 hp or less - need to be in the HA/GR class. Anything north of that figure hp-wise, probably needs to consider an SDRA setup, up to about 350hp. Mainly due to transmission longevity and the security of your toes. 350hp and up, you have to ask yourself why the hell you're messing around with either class? I really admire the gear jammers. No matter how fast/slow you are, if the guy on the other side misses a gear - its your day! I admire the SDRA class because it gives long forgotten engines a chance to shine again and do their best - which is proving to be not so shabby! Its a good class break, because the Jimmys were going to dominate the other/older engines anyway and chew up alot of manual transmissions doing so. I just hope both of these classes leave their respective rules alone. Hud
Dick, my remark certainly wasn't aimed at you, and, I doubt you thought it was. But I wanted to be sure you knew. This thread has been most interesting and your contribution is on the mark and appreciated. I simply didn't have anything to add, except repetition.
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