QUESTION: Drag engines with no coolant?

the best oil I've found when running alky is kendall or brad penn second was rotella T

 

Tarlo:
Love your car have a Topo Altered myself but its just sitting the last few years....
Anyway with regards to your posts a bit of thought if you dont mind.
The Fox body small block Mustang of today is the small block 60 something Camaro of the past. I am a Ford guy but am actually getting OD'd of Fox body Mustangs.. My friend has a Engine shop and there is any part imaginable for a Windsor Ford. Used stuff everywhere. Lots of Chinese items also if so inclined.
By the way cool putting the 302 in your Car.
Also to be forward if you dont mind.... with regards to your fuel system.
Remember Simple Suck-Squeeze -Bang-Blow. Sounds like you are using the Basic 302 to start out with. Smart. Get use to the Car and then put some power to her.
You talked about putting a bigger carb on it. Well alky Carbs aint cheap. Converting one (Holley) is a fair bit of parts and dollars. You use a good amount of Alky (fatter) so your whole fuel system needs to keep up. As the motor is what it is, think about investment that will get your performance with what you have. Maybe just stick with the Gas Carb to get the car and yourself in order first. We ran Gas Drag engines with no external coolant no prob. It will just need to be cooled between rounds. Currant car runs alky dry.One word of advice is to run the cooler water through as you start to drain the Hot. Its easier on the Valve job, less shock.. You can also keep a tank of water with pump on board to run some through it while in operation or if your stuck at the line because of various issues. Extra capacity. You will still need to drain -cool it.The real heat comes on the run. Are you driving or towing back?! Do you have to hot lap if bracket racing?? Also if you run electric pumps (Fuel - water- the ignition) you need the Electric on board to run these. Pit charging. Somethings to keep in mind of your many options.
Is E85 available to you? A good high octane alternative. Easier to run with a Carb and your set up. Much cheaper then racing gas.

Mechanical fuel injection is very basic easy. Just different thinking. Without knowing your pocketbook You could set up a mechanical injection for not much more. I am talking simple throttle body , Barrel Valve, Pump, etc. (Not a Enderle hat)Trouble is you need Compresion , Cam etc to get the power benefits of Alky so again not much point unless Alky is more available for you. Time and Money. Plus the Experience.

I would not think about the Tunnel Ram for your set up. Again think about what you have and how much work do you want to put in it. You will need the Low end velocity. Look at other like set ups and whats running well.
Keep it hitting on all 8 simply. You will, have a much more enjoyable day at the track.

Hope I did not slight you, was not trying to be an ass, just not sure of your experience. Really just tried to compress some info if it is of some help. Keep us apprised of your project, its so neat. Thank you
Luke
Here is a few links of interest.
http://raceone85.com/
http://www.e85carbs.com/
http://e85forum.com/index.php?sid=aaa783fb0c6a19a99f735a6f35504583
http://www.quickfueltechnology.com/

good luck

 

I ran injected gas on my 331 sbc on my vintage rail. I had 2 petcocks on each side of the block under the headers & I made up a resevoir/puke tank that mounted off of the water inlets on either side of the timing cover. they were plumbed intot he take ports on the manifold & I had an overflow rubber tube that went to a catch can (cantine) on the frame rail. I would fill the block between runs with water, make my run then open the petcocks on the return road to let out the hot water. I've flush 7 re-fill the block between rounds. the only thing I had to do was install petcocks on the back 2 intake ports to vent out air while filling the block. If you don't do that you get an air pocket in heads cooling passeges in the rear . while heating up the engine in the pits I've feel the heads front & back for even heat up, if the back got hotter quicker I new I had an air pocket issue. in the picture below you can see the tank on the front of my engine, I modeled it after one I saw on my buddies fuel car in the 60's (dick belfatti). it worked fine for me for years.
I never ran anit-freeze the tracks, water is safer + most tracks won't let you run anit-freeze.

Paul

 

Thanks for your detailed post. Just so you know where I'm coming from, I have only the most rudimentary experience with engines - I've pulled some down, never built one up. Every step of the way with this build has been a steep learning curve, but I'm up for the challenge.

Yourself and INLAW MODEL A have really sparked my interest in mechanical injection.

While my wallet is slim, I think I can put away enough to put a Hilborn mechanical set up on the 302. I've been pricing it and think it's achievable, perhaps by April.

I have been offered a free flight to LA in mid March, so I'm starting to dream... I mean plan. The majority of the big money has already been spent on the build, the raw materials for the remaining fabrication won't cost me too much more. That said, I think I can apply myself to gathering some cash (might have to sell my twin belly tanks), order the injection setup and pick it up when I get to the US.

I'm also thinking the Bakersfield meet will be super high on my agenda!

I noticed you mentioned compression and cam to deal with alcohol. Any help in this department (and all other advice!) will be greatly appreciated. The engine was rebuilt 6 years ago, has less than 400 miles, and has sat for 5 1/2 years, cranked regularly by hand. I know that it has stock cam, crank and pistons. It might not matter, but the heads have stainless inserts to run unleaded, roller rockers and have a beautiful port job.

 

Thanks Paul, you've really got my head ticking!

 

That's interesting, I hadn't thought about oil. Is it because the engine has different operating temperatures?

 

Hi Rooman,

I read you article in Dragster Australia today, well done with your first 200s! I'm gonna try to get to the March meet at Bakersfield next year.

I am thinking about injection. The moon tank will be mounted quite high, basically as high as I can get it behind the grill. The tank won't be pressurised but i'm hoping that the plumbing will at least be in line with the pump, if not higher.

As for cold days, I'm sure you know what Sydney weather is like. Only a few meets during the colder months, though I have to admit that I have witnessed vapour trails coming off top fueler's wings during a May meet that dropped to about 8 degrees C...

 

no it's because the oil gets diluted because your burning 2 1/2 times the am't you do on gas any some gets into the pan other oils I tried were not as good maybe in your area there are other oils that work ask around. alky works with any compression just at lower compressions you won't see a gain in hp and you can run more timing because it's slower burning

 

I have always run methanol injection in my digger, but it is higher maintenance than a gas setup. I run straight demineralized water with a remote pump and a B&M trans cooler as a radiator, sitting below the other one that IS used as the trans cooler. I run this setup more for consistent water temp than to actually cool the engine, which hasn't been necessary at all. This engine and my new 406 are both filled to the bottom of the water pump outlets with some black machinery grout or epoxy the machine shop likes (they do a lot of blown Pro/Mod & Top/Sportsman engines):



When Dad was running injected gas dragsters in the '60's I think he ran water in the block with a crossover hose, but no real cooling system:



Back then he was push started to the starting line & towed back after each run and didn't usually have to make runs closer than an hour apart.

It used to be popular to drain the block & heads and run cool water thru the engine between runs, but the sudden cooling had to be hard on things. I know a guy than ran an injected gas dragster in the '70's that did that, but couldn't keep head gaskets in it. If I were running an engine dry, gas or alcohol, I'd look into using copper head gaskets.

I believe your cooling choice on gas boils down to how long the engine actually has to run, and how long you have to cool it between runs.

 

We tried running just coolant in the block in the Fly, but it is not feasible these days. Guys are hot lapping their cars at the drag strip while you watch them drive by............waiting on yours to cool. We added a radiator, even though it was against my nature.

 

Hi Tarlo:
Man we could get into the war and peace novel... I am a slow typer also.
With regards to above will try and condense here.
With the combo you have dont be so quick to switch from Gas. Your not going to go much quicker it would just be a good learning experience.
Alky is nice to run but as anything it has its issues.
-OIL. As mentioned it will dilute your oil, you have to stay on top of it more. Especially If you have higher blowby or a fat tuneup. The oil you run will depend on your flow and clearances, weather. As mentioned Brad Penn is an excellent lube. Old Kendall.
Alky is nice as the stoichiometric ratio is fatter and more forgiving on a minor tuneup change.
Some people seem to get away with it but you will need before-after race maintenance. Such as clearing out fuel line-nozzles, lube pump etc.
You cant just park an alky engine. You can dump the oil after a race , put it into a electric skillet and bake out the diluted Alky. Mix some new oil with used oil. Short version.....
Are we talking a Stack or Hat injector?? The Hat injector is more universal as you can change Manifolds for different engine combos. The Hat-Manifold set up will make a bit more power then the stack. You have to be careful on the Stack injection as how you bolt it on and Milled heads, gasket , etc.. You can easily bind the shafts on stack injection that is one pc. A split set up for example like on Hemis is more forgiving to this. Again real condensed .
Again not trying to be a Buzz kill but look at what you have and enhance it. Learn from it. You WILL want to go faster. This is Time and money. You put power to her then the next weak link will kill your day unless you stay on top of it, within your means. You would rather run 10's all day then a 9 with all kinds of grief. Does this make sense.
Its so easy to get carried away with the moment.
My Sons Mustang has a warmed over 302-c4- 4:11 8inch. Runs 12:80's all day with a best of 12:64. He wants to go faster but it stops right here. If we put more power to it then, the frame gets tied, the 8 inch goes by by, Cage, etc etc.... No way. The car has a ton of runs on it , he can hot lap it and he learns a lot each time out. We can run the car through a dozen time trials no worries. Makes for a fun day even though its only a 12 second car. Easy maintenance.
Guess as a Parent I am simply saying go whup the snot out of that 302 and put you money into a strong engine. Your stock short block is just so sturdy.
Beat the 302 as you learn and build up a stronger engine over time. Collect parts. This will save you money in the long run. There is so much choice now for Heads-blocks,cranks etc. Even with that stock engine its still bucks and work every time you go out. My Sons car costs at least 100 dollars for a night out of fun. Fuel for the Dually, Fuel for the Car, Maintenance items, Entry fee bla bla bla...
What tranny are we talking?
Man if you go to Cali you have to go to B field. No excuses. Does suck though that they eliminated some classes.
Have to go now but will watch your thread. For your reading pleasure...
http://www.kinsler.com/page--HandbookCatalog--2.html
Down load the Manual and read away.
What the hell did I just write anyway...
I need a drink...LOL
see ya
Luke

 

LZ is right get it together with what you have install a rad and run it then decide were you want to go faster =$$$$$$ and time, enjoy have fun

 

Hi All, I am new here. I have a slightly off topic question, Can I use a Hilborn 150-0 or a 150-1 or an Enderle 80 pump with a 750 Alky carb on my Small block pulling tractor? I am now using a Black Holley electric pump.
Steve

 

Alcohol is the way to go. Back in the early 80's I wanted to race with the big boys but had no big money so I filled a 427 chevy truck block with melted alum to add more strength than grout and save a little weight. I also filled the iron heads on that motor. Never had a heating issue and it was punched out to 4.400 with a tr/cr of 16.5 to 1. A 4.400 bore in a iron BBC was really big for back then. Just do not lean it out and you will be fine. You can run it a little fat with out loseing any power unlike gasoline. I would watch my oil temp and would shut it off when it got around 250 degs but that rarely happened. It would normally run around 170 to 200 after a few passes. Oh it was in a TA/FC for almost 2 years before the main webs finally gave out. I use to run only Kendall oil the green stuff and change it after every pass as it was free at the time thanks to Clayton Hunter

 

Thanks for the repy. I run it on alky now, the carb is a factory alky one from Holley.I have popet that retuns fuel back to the tank [kind of like a poor man injected]. I am using a Mallory SM IV so I only have battery for starting and to run the elec fuel pump, now at idle the fuel press is around 11psi drops a little during a run.I guess my question is:would an injection pump be better than the elec? I have 3 pumps to choose from Hilborn 150-0. 150-1 and an Enderle 80. I an using the green Brad Penn oil.
Steve

 

I had a buddy that was a partner in a hemi dragster in the 60's They mixed glauber salt and epoxy and filled the block.water only in the heads, One partner had a PHD in Chemistry, was On the NHRA fuel committe. The salt is a phase change material that will absorb alot of BTU\s, as it changes from crystaline to liquid state. They could run on sunday and the block was still warm on Monday noon. It took a long time to get hot and a long tim to get rid of the BTU's and cool

 

I'm no expert. So here's a simpleton's thoughts: What are you looking to accomplish? I ask this because the 2 systems operate in quite different ways. For the carb - the airflow effectively controls the fuel mixture at a particular RPM (over simplified - I know). The pump only being a method of keeping the fuel bowl full which is why a constant pressure (or near constant pressure) is all that's required.

Contrast that with a mechanical fuel injection where Fuel Pressure is what governs fuel mixture at any particular RPM - air flow controls nothing. The pump is "over pumping" and excess fuel is sent back to the tank to tailor your fuel curve. This is done (as you already know) with various poppets that you can set as various pressures to bleed off some pressure accordingly.

So - I now would have to assume you're after more volume or am I confused?
When you say your carb is a factory one - I assume you mean a factory ALCOHOL CARB???

 

Hi, Yes the Carb was sold by Holley as an alky carb.The class for our club is, N/A carb only. I was asking about an injector pump with a carb for more volume. I have a Bugcatcher on a tunnel ram that I can run in another club. but at the present I will run the carb.

 

When are you going to start working on the thing! You have been over here helping me, I would be glad to add my labor.

 

The '34 roadster that just ran the 1st 300+ run at Bonneville in Oct does not use any coolant.

 

go gas.work with what ya got ,it's cheaper .