hello i have one foot in mopar field as i try put things together with what i have o is avalible,so my question is a bellhousing from a1960 plymouth poly engine do this fit older engines such as early hemi or something,and flywheel and clutch some mach. i have 833 3-speed and 4-speed overdrive
As I recall, the bellhousing bolt pattern for the early Chrysler ('54-'58 331/354/392), DeSoto ('52-57...maybe some '58 276/291/325/330/341), Dodge ('53 to '57..maybe some '58 241/270/315/325) and Plymouth ('55 - some '56 241/259) were all the same. The early engines were, I think referred to as the "A" series, at least in the smaller versions. What followed them, starting in '56 with the 277/301/318 engines have a similar, but not quite the same, block/bellhousing pattern. I do not think your '60 bellhousing will work with the early engine blocks. If I am mistaken, some one will be along very shortly to correct this information Ray
I was told that the '58 flathead 6 stick bellhousing was the one to get to mate an early Hemi to an A-833 Mopar 4 speed trans. I'm not sure why a '58 bellhousing was chosen specifically, or what years would be the same, but that's what I was told. I'm curious to hear more, I'd like to know if the '60 Torqflite would bolt up to, say, a Dodge Power Giant 354 engine since that's what I'd like to put in my '60 Fury with the stock trans. There's a thread about early Hemi transmissions but it seems to be more about adapters than anything else.
I don't think any flathead 6 bellhousing (used in cars/trucks thru '59 models) will in any way mate with a V8. However, Mopar changed the manual transmissions in 1957 models to a stronger unit than used before that time. The new trans also had a different trans case bolt pattern that was used for many year thereafter. So, if one wanted to put an A833 trans behind a six with stock parts it might be done with a '57/'58/'59 six cylinder bellhousing.......(edit: see TR Waters post below) may depend on length of trans input shaft........... Further......using that information, it might be possible to mate an A833 to an earlier V8 by using a '57 Dodge 325 poly/hemi V8 manual bellhousing. (edit: see below..again) Probably not an easy item to find....but should mate with both engine and trans. Ray
The 1960 bellhousing "could" be bolted to the early hemi, but the dowel pins and lower L&R bolts side bolts will be in a different location. The older bellhousings are almost 9 inches deep. An A833 uses a bellhousing just under 7.5". Thats why you dont see A833 transmissions bolted to old iron bellhousings.
OK, I'll add what I think I know... There is a bellhousing from ca 58-59-60, used on the flathead 6 for sure and likely was used on some v-8 that had both the six and v-8 block bolt patterns. This bell is almost a bolt-up for the A833 OD trans. The Plymouth A series v-8, 277-303, et al, up until the 62 changeover, had the same crank design and same bellhousing bolt pattern as the EarlyHemi and Hemi-based Poly engines. If you have a 59 Plymouth 318 and want to mount an A518 then buy an EarlyHemi adapter. The dowel pins did not move until the redesign for the 62 model year, same as the crank change. Check this thread from P15-D24. Note to Squablow; bolt that sucker up! .
73RR..........about that bellhousing "from ca 58-59-60, used on the flathead six for sure and likely was used on some V8 that had both six and V8 block bolt patterns". From my experience with flathead six Mopars, and I have had 218,230, 265 engines in various of my cars, the Mopar six block is a lot like a Chevy 216/235 etc. in that there is no 'flange' shape to the rear of the block. Unlike, for instance, a chevy six, '63 and later 194,230,250,292 which has a 'flange' the same shape as a Chevy V8. The Mopar bellhousing for flathead sixes has a sort of envelope shape with a front 'wall' that bolts to the block, a space for the flywheel/clutch, and a rear 'wall' for the trans attachment surface. All of the pre-slant six blocks are so constructed, unlike the V8's, which have a roughly half circle 'flange' at the back of the block. While I trust you know all this stuff, I do not understand how a bellhousing could be configured to fit both a flathead six block and a V8 block. If we were talking slant six, then maybe so, as I think it has the 'flange' (for lack of a better description) similar to the V8's. Hope you don't find this question tedious, just trying to confirm what I thought I knew about these engines or make corrections in my mental data bank as needed. Regards, Ray
My 1967 Trans Dapt listings show the same part number bell housings for '54-'58 Chrysler hemis and '55-'61 Plymouth "with distributor in back", i.e. wide block 318 style engines.
57 - 59 plymouths had a dual bolt pattern bell housing for either a flathead 6 or v8 its a great way to get a v8 manual set up
ok thanks for all answers this bell and trans up for sale 2 times and no sale for 150 dollar and if it fits on a early hemi someone have to need it,iwill call him and make an offer.its in sweden ken
Just goes to show that I am not too old to learn I wasnt sure when the dowel pin pattern was changed. The main thing is the depth of the bellhousing. And for the early aftermarket adapters, dont forget to take into consideration the thickness of the original starter plates often used with them. Also, to some guys it doesnt matter, but when using original parts, you have a 50 lb flywheel, a 60 lb bellhousing, along with a 45 lb starter.
I have read this thread with great interest, not because I have a similar situation, but because I think it points out the reasons for the popularity of the Chev V8s in swaps. A V8 Bellhousing is a V8 Bellhousing - at least up until the most recent iteration. I like Mopars....I've had a couple of Hemi-powered vehicles and they're what hot rodding is all about (and Olds/Cad/Buick/FE/sbf/etc), but Chev just makes it TOO easy to mix & match (except for starter headaches). dj
I just had an AH HAH! moment when reading TR Waters post above 're the starter plate thickness. When I was rambling on above about the configuration of the flahead six manual bellhousings and how there is no way they can bolt on to a V8, I had totally forgotten about the aluminum starter mount/trans adapter used with the automatics. The use of that plate on a flathead six block could accommodate a V8 style, open front bellhousing, which could easily be manufactured for use with 6 or V8...........voila' I can only echo TR's comment about not be too old (or too proud) to learn....Thanks TR, for the post...this bellhousing thing was bugging me Ray
so if i wind up with a early hemi engine 10 years from now i will be sorry if i dont by the stuff(joke)what i have is a 3-speed 833 ironcase and this would fit in a early hot rod as now i have 2 of this gearboxes and know where you can get them for less than 100 dollar(3 more)1970-1978 all gears synk
Ray, keep in mind that the factory manual trans packages did not use any type of starter mounting plate as did the automatic trans. As Tom notes, most, if not all, of the manual trans adapters from the 50's and 60's simply cast a bell to bolt to the starter mounting plate so they didn't have to deal with the starter. Generally, they specified the 57-58 parts to gain the 12v stuff. Please look at the pics in the p15-d24 link and it will be quite obvious that the bellhousing does indeed have both bolt patterns. In pic 1, the v-8 pattern shows well and in pic 3 the 4 bolts and alignment pin holes are shown. The flathead 6/8 attachment is by the 4 bolts at the sides of the crank and a couple on top. I have not yet found this bell in an original car/truck so I have no clue what trans was used but it would appear that this was the start of the more 'modern' designs with a somewhat shorter input shaft, ala A833/NP230. Gary
Gary, Thanks for the additional info. I used the link but could not access the pics because I am not a member of the forum, so I tried to register as I have some early 6 mopar stuff. I needed to list a 'reference' and used your HAMB name......no soap. So, if you are willing to indulge me, perhaps you can PM me a 'reference' name and I will try again to register. If not.....oh well edit: Well, I started out believing that the manuals DID NOT use the starter plate like the automatics, but just couldn't imagine the 'envelope style' iron bell working for both six and V8. Now, thinking about the fact that a starter plate fits between the block and whatever is hanging on the crank, and recalling that the manual V8 iron bells kinda do that too, it's starting to come together in my head. Ray
same nightmare I'm into here V8 bellhousing is now to long for the 3 speed trans to reach the pilot bushing. Not sure what to do now. Is there a longer input shaft for the 3 speed when its behind a v8 or do I have a wierd bell housing? I thought there would be no problems changing from a 6 to an 8 as long as I got an 8 cyl bell housing. Dave
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