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Projects Patch welding tips .....

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by FAKKY, May 31, 2021.

  1. patterg2003
    Joined: Sep 21, 2014
    Posts: 688

    patterg2003

    My son hit a moose and did some damage to the hood and grille. There was a couple rust spots so I thought lets fix it & paint the truck. The body shop welded in about 3 patches. About 3 years in and we could see the outline of every patch showing themselves on the way to breaking through. Water is going to wick in the butt joint if they are not sealed. I live in Canada in an area where some times the salt blows off the highway like dust when a transport goes by. My friend and I repainted his old Ford van. I made up patch panels & prepped them for tight fit ups to butt weld. We had a welder friend weld them in. The van looked great in Cadillac silver & charcoal. The patches looked good until the van died. I would go with a butt joint if it is possible.
     
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  2. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 15,346

    Paul
    Editor

    Try not to over think every step,
    and don't be afraid of doing it over if you don't like the results.
     
  3. that could be made in one piece with a little patience and a hammer and dolly
     
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  4. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 7,702

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Use poster board to simulate the part. It’s cheaper when you mess up. The poster board will tell you how to shape the part.
    Where to stretch or shrink.
     
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  5. FAKKY
    Joined: Sep 9, 2016
    Posts: 257

    FAKKY
    Member

    Got this going ...

    [​IMG]

    think I will tack the left piece in place .... then take over to bench and cut it like fitzeee does between wels to get a good butt joint of the two pieces ......
    then weld up the bottom which is now 90 degree lipped ......

    Probably then come back and refit and then put on truck ....... repeat the tack and cut like fitzee again ....

    wont be perfect on curves ....... but still looks decent
     
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  6. Fortunateson
    Joined: Apr 30, 2012
    Posts: 4,033

    Fortunateson
    Member

    I'm no metal man but that looks promising. I would trip the wheel opening section a bit to get it to line up better with the existing structure and roll that bend a bit so it joins better. Also, is there not a bit of a roll where the longer straight piece is? You could try doing that by rolling the piece over the gas bottle of your welder.
     
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  7. FAKKY
    Joined: Sep 9, 2016
    Posts: 257

    FAKKY
    Member

    well I got it in ........
    It looked really good originally ....... but made a bonehead move of trying to grind everythin down flat ...... then realized I had cat into base metal in few places and had to reweld and build up the thin metal ......

    So will be more bondo to straighten out and cover welds ........ but at least its all solid behind her

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    ** rattle can primer is just to keep rust at bay until I finish the rest
     
  8. indyjps
    Joined: Feb 21, 2007
    Posts: 4,163

    indyjps
    Member

    Good first patch, some feedback if youre interested.
    See how your joint line pops in and out, the cut on the body was wavy, as you tacked the 2 pieces pulled together and puckered in and out. In the future set the panels with straight edges, with a slight gap, successive tacks tighten up the joint, but it prevents the edges from butting up hard. if you see any pucker along the joint, fix it early.
    That panel likely needed some curve between the patch line and bottom.

    The rear corner, needs to be formed over something to get a crown in it, curves down vertically and wraps around the back, where those two bends meet it needs a crown. The weld bottle cap sugestion is a good one. Make the bottom bend, make the rear bend and pie cut the corner, start forming over the bottle cap, tack the outside edge of your pie cuts and hanmer over the joint to keep it from bunching, dont overlap your pie cuts. Dont be afraid to cut thru your tacks on the pie cut to get it to lay down correctly.

    Hope this makes sense, hard to put into words.
    I try not to have corners in my patches, drill the corners of the area and use a radius. Easier to cut out. More difficult to make the patch. The sharp corner pulls and makes waves.
     
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  9. FAKKY
    Joined: Sep 9, 2016
    Posts: 257

    FAKKY
    Member

  10. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 7,702

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Use patterns to dissect each part.
    3BF7AE47-14A9-4535-91CA-78246BE00136.jpeg
    the bad.
    D728838B-94BC-4BA2-ABD8-E75458BF7DBF.jpeg
    the pattern
    20622917-9ADB-436F-A8F9-930FB5600587.jpeg
    the new piece installed.
    Not great pics but using patterns you create a repair plan
     
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  11. 1oldtimer
    Joined: Aug 21, 2003
    Posts: 8,000

    1oldtimer
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I would try to make the fender flair one piece with the other patch. If you have to break it up into 2 panels run the flair into the flat patch area (it's going to be hard to grind your weld in a valley). Carve out the flair with some wood and use that as a buck to form your patch. same with the gutter area......nice to see another panel truck around.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2021
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  12. Lloyd's paint & glass
    Joined: Nov 16, 2019
    Posts: 4,520

    Lloyd's paint & glass
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Take your time and do it to suit yourself. I butt weld patch panels, sometimes i use my flanger on patch panels in conjunction with weld through primer, but it's second nature for those of us who do it everyday. Don't get overwhelmed. Like Anthony said in one of his posts, file fit, creep up on your fit. Just remember that this has nothing to do with production, time limits, etc. It doesn't take that much longer to do a good job.
     
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  13. AGELE55
    Joined: Jan 4, 2018
    Posts: 270

    AGELE55
    Member

    Amen. A lot of fear mongering about lap welding I think. Most of us will not out live the cars we are saving. These cars will also spend their golden years sitting in an enclosed garage, and not commuting the daily slog through rain,snow,sleet, dark of night, salt, mud, crammed parking lots, bleaching sun. Build it to suit you and your needs and enjoy.
    I admire anyone who gets in the shop and tries to learn. Is butt welding better? ..probably so. Is butt welding necessary in every case?... I think not.
     
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  14. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 7,702

    anthony myrick
    Member

    No fear mongering.
    Butt welding is just easier in my opinion.
     
  15. cornfieldcustoms
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 893

    cornfieldcustoms
    Member

    and the proper way to do the repair
     
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  16. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 5,224

    sunbeam
    Member

    My question how did the factory build cars lap or butt weld?
     
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  17. buick bill
    Joined: Dec 18, 2008
    Posts: 527

    buick bill
    Member
    from yreka;ca

    i used the foam method on a 80 fiesta years ago .outlasted the rest of the pos . was kinda fun to do as well !
     
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  18. "I prefer a lap welded and buried in bondo patch panel over a butt welded and metal finished patch" said no one.
    always strive for doing the job as correctly as you can.
    the foam method on a fiesta is the correct way to fix that turd.
     
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  19. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 15,047

    Squablow
    Member

    I think you're on the right track, and I don't see any reason the piece you're making absolutely has to be made all in one piece. The ends would be easier to work as small sections in my opinion, and will be easier to fit separately. A shrinker would really help give your wheel lip more curvature. Also magnetic panel clamps can help get the alignment right when you're tacking in new parts, which can be helpful. Keep working at it, even if you have to redo something that's already done. At the end of this project you're going to have some real skills.

    As for the roof piece, on my '57 Chevy I had to drill out a bunch of spot welds, take pieces out of the inside of the roof, then tent the car and sandblast it from the inside to get the roof area clean. The sandblasting also revealed more pinholes than were obvious and made the outer patch area larger. It was a big job and kind of a pain in the ass, but in the end it was a very nice repair.
     
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  20. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 7,702

    anthony myrick
    Member

    They generally use flanged joints for panels, however the recommended join process recommended by the majority of manufactures call for a butt join in non factory locations.
    For instance. A qtr panel is a complete side for most new cars. The recommended join for the qtr is factory seams except at the pillar and rocker. Those are generally a butt joint.
     
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  21. AGELE55
    Joined: Jan 4, 2018
    Posts: 270

    AGELE55
    Member

    I think I see a disconnect in our concepts here. Proponents of lap welding are not advocating a lap underneath and “buried in bondo “, but instead a flanged edge to raise the patch flush to surface, but still afford a “lap”, similar to factory laps. Just saying..
     
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  22. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 7,702

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Metal finishing this one now.
    Use patterns for the shape. Break the steps down into manageable parts.
    This qtr bottom was 2 pieces. The lower lip was made in a shrinker/stretcher to make the contour. The side of the panel was made by hand using a profile pattern and overall shape pattern.
    The curved radius (bottom of the side panel) was made by hand.
    264E5030-84C5-438D-A1DA-C0F5BBE86DFC.jpeg
    8E0EE3E0-6210-4663-9A06-ADA030C06B17.jpeg
    B3275EE4-6BF5-44CE-9A69-1007CEEF8B05.jpeg
    Still have a little bit of metal finishing.
    There are a couple “stud gun” impressions used to raise the area not accessible from behind and a little more hammer and dolly work left. The butt weld process speeds this up in my worthless opinion.
     
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  23. There are very few lapped panels from the factory on any vehicle other than roof pillars where the small size and rigid shape result in and area that is not going to expand and contract much. That is not the case in the middle of a fender or quarter panel.
     
  24. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 7,702

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Even small part deserve a pattern
    56A9E452-9DC3-41EF-8B30-7B80C69A9417.jpeg
    C0867233-B1CF-4743-B88F-D0737B62727C.jpeg
    8DB97983-F217-4C35-AB8D-C67535441007.jpeg
    52C90086-D8B2-49C8-8FC8-8B60C506A269.jpeg
    AADEA2F8-16E9-41FA-BF9D-17A75F13ADFA.jpeg
    almost no filler will be needed
     
  25. 1oldtimer
    Joined: Aug 21, 2003
    Posts: 8,000

    1oldtimer
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

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  26. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 7,702

    anthony myrick
    Member

    D323F38A-23E3-4EA4-97F7-65CE5EF812BB.jpeg
    prime it
     
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  27. FAKKY
    Joined: Sep 9, 2016
    Posts: 257

    FAKKY
    Member

    So I fell like this is someones fault :)
    In deep now ....
    Good news is Im butt welding everything on outside - especially now that I've moved over to MIG as welding outside and SO much easier ....
    I am doing a few lap welds on inside back quarter behind what will be shown. I did it as it was easier and IM interested to see how it holds - wont be seen and easy to fix if need.

    Anyway - tuips here on making sure the door looks good after I butt weld everything in ? Mean keeping it in line as kind of both sides have to be replaced and pinched together.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  28. take your time, keep the panels aligned as you go. if it starts to get out of alignment, stop and tap it back
     
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  29. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 15,047

    Squablow
    Member

    Last time I did a door like that I made the inner section and fit it tightly before I removed any of the outer skin, the old skin was shit but there was enough left to know where it had to line up, then I made the outer skin to fit onto the inner structure. Also, if those are holes on the left side of the skin, you need to cut way more sheetmetal off. Use a straightedge to get a really straight clean cut, the wavier the cut line is the more likely it'll be tough to match up your patch and big gaps are harder to keep from warping.
     
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  30. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 15,047

    Squablow
    Member

    Also, lots of cooldown time in between tack welds. The worst thing you can do is build up a lot of heat.
     
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