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Customs Paint pros: Can I put filler over House of Kolor KD 3000 series primer, yes/no?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Chris Casny, Jun 21, 2015.

  1. Chris Casny
    Joined: Mar 13, 2006
    Posts: 4,719

    Chris Casny
    Member
    from Jamaica

    I like the HOK KD 3000 series primer, great stuff, I've used it before, but I've always shot it over body filler. Since the humidity is fairly high right now, I want to get a bare metal body primed, to prevent surface rust.
    Can I put body filler (Evercoat Rage) over the KD 3000 (direct to metal, DTS) primer/sealer?????

    Thanks.
     
  2. john worden
    Joined: Nov 14, 2007
    Posts: 1,443

    john worden
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from iowa

    The product information sheet for that product should provide the most accurate answer. I'd bet HOK has a filler compatible product.
     
  3. Autodave
    Joined: Jul 28, 2013
    Posts: 125

    Autodave
    Member
    from Menifee,Ca

    You can but I try to avoid it and only use a glaze (like Evercoat Metal Glaze) over paint and primer.
     
  4. Todd M.
    Joined: May 24, 2009
    Posts: 482

    Todd M.
    Member

    Easy sand by Evercoat
     
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  5. Chris Casny
    Joined: Mar 13, 2006
    Posts: 4,719

    Chris Casny
    Member
    from Jamaica

    It does not
     
  6. Chris Casny
    Joined: Mar 13, 2006
    Posts: 4,719

    Chris Casny
    Member
    from Jamaica

    .???
     
  7. Todd M.
    Joined: May 24, 2009
    Posts: 482

    Todd M.
    Member

    Easy Sand use after shrinking the metal work (work the dents out with hammer and dolly) Rage for heavier body work.

    [​IMG]
     
    Chris Casny likes this.
  8. Chris Casny
    Joined: Mar 13, 2006
    Posts: 4,719

    Chris Casny
    Member
    from Jamaica

    So, no Evercoat rage over the HOK primer. Is there another primer I can shoot now then put filler over?
     
  9. The HOK techno data sheet seems to imply that it is an epoxy based primer, which is always good
    as a substrate for polyesters, BUT, there is no mention of putting anything over it other than topcoats.
    Best to call HOK and get them to tell you for sure.
    Sorry, no real help
     
    Chris Casny likes this.
  10. Chris I work for Evercoat. I am not sure what they mean by it being a hybrid Epoxy but as Flowmeister states fillers can go over fully cured epoxies without any issues. My guess is they call it a hybrid due to it's high build capabilities and you will have no issues but I agree it would be best to talk to HOK to see what they say. From the filler side if it is a epoxy there is no problem going overtop of it with Rage Gold.
     
    40fordtudor likes this.
  11. john worden
    Joined: Nov 14, 2007
    Posts: 1,443

    john worden
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from iowa

    PPG DPLF series of epoxy primers are approved by PPG for use under filler. HOWEVER!!! confirm that statement by reading the P sheet for the DPLF.
     
  12. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 7,743

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    A topic I often get mixed reactions about, but still...

    I don't like polyester fillers over anything but prepped metal. While it depends upon the thickness for sure, enough filler over any primer substrates, even epoxy, and the solvents in the filler can soften the stuff below it. It doesn't show until the job is near done, but enough heat over a dark color and that soft "ring" around the filler can ghost up through the finish. I know keeping metal clean is a prime concern (no pun intended) so perhaps the best way to protect it is to use as little primer possible to protect it and simply grind back where you need to work when that time comes. No waste, metal protected, no chance of anything ghosting up through your hard labor long after it's done. I try to use as little filler as possible like many of us do, and sometimes you can get away with a very thin coat used just to level a surface. This where polyester primers can be a help. A good etched metal surface, a couple coats of poly primer (Slik Sand, Featherfill, etc) and you get both. Unless the primer gets actually wet (I never sand poly primer with water, EVER) it will still be protected from flash rust during the build process. Left too long in ever changing climates it's possible to get rust below since poly primers are as porous as fillers. To review, use a really light coat for protection and sand it back to metal for work/repair and you can't go wrong. I hope this helps...
     
  13. toxonix
    Joined: Jun 15, 2011
    Posts: 25

    toxonix
    Member

    The DTS and DTM primer/sealers can be top coated with high build poly primer/surfacer as long as its within the recoat window. I've found the polyester primer sticks to bare metal or cured epoxy primer, but once you're outside the sealer's window all bets are off. I think the KD 3000's window is 48 hours, but the datasheet doesn't say as far as I can remember. It's short. Some epoxies are shorter, some are 2 weeks or so.
    However, like theHIGHLANDER says above, the solvents in the poly primer/filler in theory can harm the epoxy, since it's sitting on the epoxy, having an exothermic reaction with the in it is evaporating. Cured epoxy is supposed to be resistant to solvents, but it's like laying a rag covered in acetone over the primer then heating it up. But I have had no trouble spraying on a dry tack coat of poly primer over HOK DTS or DTM, waiting for that to cure, then shooting a few wet coats for blocking.
    I use cold galvanizing compound for storage and flash rust protection. It sands off really easily, but I wouldn't top coat it. For some reason even though it seems pretty porous, I've never had clean metal rust under the zinc cold galvanizing compound. (Rustoleum)
     
  14. I'd like to know who and why they started the "filler over epoxy" thing.
    When I first heard about it i have to say I was quite enamored by it, sure sounds great. Then I had a failure.

    The manufacture came and tested everything yet found no fault on theirs or mine or situational circumstances. In my heart I know I would have done nothing differently. The manufacture covered everything but would never say what went wrong. When asked what should be different their only response was to put the filler on the metal as they paid for the correction.
     
  15. Chris Casny
    Joined: Mar 13, 2006
    Posts: 4,719

    Chris Casny
    Member
    from Jamaica

    Thanks guys. I never trusted that filler over primer process anyway and I have never done it, but I keep reading about it, alot. I'm concluding that the "old" method seems to still be the best.

    The reason I initially thought this could work is, that high build primer is more or less liquid filler anyway.
     
  16. john worden
    Joined: Nov 14, 2007
    Posts: 1,443

    john worden
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from iowa

    I've used filler over epoxy primer countless times because it is reassuring to have a talc free water proof primer between talc laden filler and or primer filler/surfacer and metal. Talc absorbs water.
    I'm pretty sure PPG wouldn't approve and list on the P sheet the technique if it was unproven.
    As in any paint related work METICULOUS PREPARATION AND PROCEDURE is key.
    Don't be fooled with the term "high build" because it will crack if used thicker than recommended.
    Sure it's high build but only in relation to previous primer technology which isn't saying much.
     
  17. mikhett
    Joined: Jan 22, 2005
    Posts: 1,398

    mikhett
    Member
    from jackson nj

    I put filler SKIM coats over SOUTHERN POLYURETHANES (SPI) epoxy .Than proceed to 2k primer .NO PROBLEMS YET!
     
  18. VOODOO ROD & CUSTOM
    Joined: Dec 27, 2009
    Posts: 1,230

    VOODOO ROD & CUSTOM
    Member

    Epoxy is the only primer that should be used under MUD. S.P.I. makes a fantastic Epoxy.
    S.P.I. is also somewhat finicky. Read all instructions and follow them to a "T" with S.P.I.
    Epoxy and you will have no problems. Some epoxies do not have directions for filler over them.
    The Epoxy's SUPERIOR adhesion and corrosion protection is the reason to use it under "MUD".

    Hope this helps.
    P.S. - (2) coats max. while following all flash, dry, etc... times.

    VR&C.
     
    Chris Casny likes this.
  19. Dick Stevens
    Joined: Aug 7, 2012
    Posts: 2,588

    Dick Stevens
    Member

    I have watched a youtube video of how it holds up with mud over epoxy primer and it showed that if you follow the directions to the letter, it hangs on as well to cured epoxy primer as well as it does to bare metal.
     
  20. I dont know if I still have my MSDS sheets for DP epoxy primers.....but is it recommended to add solvent to the DP epoxy(or equivelent) when used as a base primer or are you best served not to add solvent to epoxys when used as a base primer. If my memory serves adding solvent(lacquer thinner)to the formula, I believe, gives epoxy primers a sealing effect.
     
  21. john worden
    Joined: Nov 14, 2007
    Posts: 1,443

    john worden
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from iowa

    The P sheet rather than the MSDS is a better source of directions for use.
     

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