The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Ziggster, Nov 25, 2019.
Saw these at SEMA, not cheap, but very well made!
I was a union carpenter for 20 years which doesn't mean I "know it all".
What I think you are talking about is what we called an engineered beam and would easily pull an engine at only 8 feet long. The steel that is sandwiched between two 2x6's is called a flitch plate (sounds made up, don't it?). They are fine and well as long as you account for deflection. You, of course, will get some vertical deflection under load but it's the lateral deflection that is dangerous. The beam has to be braced from the sides to prevent this. A good example is in swade41's post. That being said, by the time you buy material (Just FYI, I use liquid nails on all the interior surfaces AFTER drilling) and assemble it, I believe you would be money and time ahead to invest in an "A" frame that you can break down and store it when not in use. Just my two cents (not actual value).
Without having any experience with these cranes, I have to say I don't like the design of it. It appears to have a lightweight crossbeam with some latice type bracing. I'd rather have a thicker crossbeam. There appears to be no diagonal bracing where the uprights meet the crossbeams, so any sideways strain places all the strain on the bolts with the beams acting as levers. Unless the trolley is silky smooth with weight on it, you will be pulling sideways sometimes. The trolley is mounted on top of the beam. I have no idea how they keep it from tipping over, but again, its not something thats the best way to do it. They may work fine. At the very least I would add diagonal bracing where the uprights meet the crossbeams.Also there is no bracing between the uprights, they just rely only on the floor bolts. Personally I think its not something I would ever consider buying. It looks downright dangerous to me......
Does letting a cow take a swing on the swing set help it feel better?
I had laugh at that one! Almost spit my drink out! Yes is does make the cows feel better! We can tell by the smile on her face! By the way, do you know why our cows wore bells?....."............??
Because their horns don’t work!
I bought a falling band saw from a machinist's home garage back in the spring. He had an overhead beam spanning the width of his garage. It sat on 2x6's sandwiched together. He also ran 2x6's on either side from the floor to the top of the beam that prevented the beam from rolling and filled out the remainder of the space in the cavity between the studs.
It appeared pretty damn sturdy. He said that he was cautious moving heavy loads on the trolly, because if momentum built up, the beam did not have a lot of lateral strength. But we had no problem lifting and moving the ~400# saw.
I've considered pulling the plywood off the walls in my own garage and adding an overhead beam by this method. Maybe at some point in the future.
Some progress. Glued and screwed two sets of 3 x 2" x 10" x 16' together, and now drilling holes for the L bracket and bolting it in. Damn this is a lot of work. This thing could probably support 5000 lbs. Prior I had to cut off 10 angle brackets on the L bracket.
OMG! Git er done. Just don't breath to heavy. lol.
Trying to get this thing done ASAP, but of course now it's time to do the visit family thing for Christmas. Forgot to mention I have 120 x 3" wood screws joining all three 2" x 10" pcs together. Lol. Using the bench top drill press made for straight holes and easy drilling through the steel. I jammed up the table underneath the beam to keep things from moving which I thought about at the last minute. Now to attach the L brkt to the other beam.
Good start! Keep at it and when its all done you won't know how you got along without it. I want to see a picture of something hanging on it..............
Got three of the four vertical posts in. Of course, while removing some drywall, I found missing insulation in two places, and in the first instance, the vapour barrier wasn't properly sealed. I also found out that the steel jack post supporting the main beam for the main floor isn't centered over the main beam running in my crawl space. It is offset by about 4"-6" and is just sitting on two joists that are resting on the main beam. That might explain why my main floor droops a bit just outside my kitchen. Seems I'm always fixing up other peoples's mistakes. Lol..
The vertical beam in the corner goes directly down to a step in the foundation. I had to cut a hole in the floor to pass the post as I cannot access that area from the crawl space. The other beam along the wall rests ontop of some blocking between joists in the crawl space which rest themselves on the main bean which is right next to the foundation. The same for the post closest in the pic.
I've got to clear my bench, and remove some of the framing for it before I can install the last vertical post which is going to be a pain.
Picked up another $50 in bolts (d'oh) for this project, more wood, screws, drywall compound ($150) and 1/4" steel plate to mod the trolley brackets. Guy at MetalSupermarkets wanted $60 for about 2.5" ft and a 10" lg round pipe I'm going to use to mod my engine stand for the flathead exhaust mtg. Damn. This is getting kinda spendy. Haven't decided if I'll use the L section for the transverse trolley rails of the box section in the pic. The box section will be stronger, but will also require it to drop down from the ceiling even more. Lifting the beams with the L section into place is going to be fun.
Got the one main horizontal beam installed last night with lots of cursing and some sketchy wooden blocks sitting on top of a ladder and my hydraulic press. During the process, I used my laundry tub as a support, and when I was about to head upstairs, I heard the drip drip of a leak. This thing has given me problems before, and the whole installation was a botched affair when they built the house. I installed a shut-off valve I had lying around on the leaking side this morning to allow us to take showers this morning as I had previously installed one on the cold side.
Another $350 this morning for new tub, taps, insulation, and plumbing bits. I'm going to pull a good size piece of drywall as I previously discovered missing insulation. I think I almost forgot what the purpose of all this as in the first place. Lol...
You sound like you have my kind of luck..........
What I always tell my son is that everyone is going to have stupid problems happen, but in all of lifes problems this is much easier than what many others have to deal with. So I count myself as lucky when I consider lifes possible problems as a whole.
I'm having trouble picturing how your crane is going to be assembled and work. Is the long angle iron supposed to hold a trolley ?
Glad i,m not the only one. I,m a little lost as well now. I thought you were just fitting a gantry to roll to left and right between two poles. Will the gantry also go from front of basement to rear of basement ? Can we get a sketch to ponder on ?
One half of each trolley set of wheels will ride on the L shaped section which is bolted to the wooden joists you see pictured above. I'll will then (somehow still to be determined) attach two pieces of steel box sections to a set of trolley wheels. This whole affair will move between and ride on the two L shaped sections which are about 8' apart and are 14' long. I will then run another trolley on the two box sections that will operate perpendicular to the main L sections.
I agree it's hard to imagine all of this as even I have problems. Lol.
The idea is to extend the two main L shaped sections all the way down to my double doors. That is another 16' or 18', but I'll leave that for the spring.
I’m kinda getting a picture of what your doing . But I think you are going to have to put some adjustable lateral rollers in the keep the Weight bearing rollers in line.
Another way some commercial hoist solve this problem is to weld an angle iron , with the “ point” up onto the track area and the use rollers with a vee cut into them to keep them on track!
But I may be confused as to what you are actually doing! Lol
A pic of the 1 ton trolley rollers. They have an extended flange that will run along the edge of the L shaped section. They will be fixed in terms of width when attached to the two transverse box sections, so they will not be able to run-off the L section.
A pic of the insulation of wall. Not the worst job, as I was expecting less insulation, but not good enough for these parts when it gets into the -30C range here. The top of the opening is about a foot above grade outside.
If I understand you correctly, the first part of what you are saying is that you will "only have" 1/2 of a trolley setting on each L shaped rail. If that is correct, I would not try it. I don't think it will work properly and there is danger that the crossbeam could cock and come off the rail. I might not be understanding you correctly.
In any case, you need for your trolley to be on both sides of a beam, not just one side. From what you already have in place in the picture, I would make some uprights at each corner that go up within five inches of your ceiling, maybe a little closer if you have enough angle iron for two double crossbars. Cut your angle iron into 4 pieces and bolt them into two pairs back to back. Drill two holes in them at each end on the bottom flange. Set them on top of the corner posts you just put up. They should be running crossways not longways. Put lag screws into the holes you drilled and screw them down into the support posts. This is why you need a little space between the tops of the corner posts and the ceiling. I would put the screws on a slight inward angle so they don't split the posts as you tighten them.
Then go buy a length of 4" I beam twice as long as the lengthways dimension of your crane. You can them bolt them to the bottom of your angle iron cross braces. Put it as close to the side wall as you can while still allowing room for the trolley to clear when it is rolled along the rail. This gets the beam weight near the ends of your angle iron cross brace and also helps transfer weight directly to the corner posts rather than the crossbrace. When you get the first
longways rail near the wall mounted, you need to make the other longways rail parallel..
I would mount one end of the 2nd longways rail with two bolts and then use a large C clamp to hold the other end until you get them close to parallel. Be sure the c clamp is strong and well attached.
Then make your trolley beam and mount it. Roll it along the beam until it moves smoothly from end to end and then bolt the second end in place and remove the C clamp. Drill and install the rest of the bolts.
Thats how I would do it. You have to decide whats right for you. I would not under any circumstance use only one half of a trolley on each side. Sorry to give you a little more bad news, but I'm trying to help.
I think I understand what your are saying, but there is no way the two L section beams will "spread" apart to let the trolleys drop out. Each of the L section beams is bolted to three 2" x 10" joists with qty 6 x 1/2" bolts. These joists are glued and screwed together with qty 120 x 3" screws each.
I'll test fit everything together to make sure the two L section beams are parallel and fitted so that the flange on the trolley wheels is rubbing against the edge of L section beams with zero clearance. Nothing is going to budge when I'm done.
Buttoned up the hole in the wall with proper insulation and sealing of the vapour barrier. I'm going to build a small section to hide the drain and water pipes.
The concern is not that the rails will spread, but that as your trolley rolls one side will catch as the other continues causing it to cock and possibly leave the rail. Am I sure that may happen.... NO. You will need to have some clearance between the trolley wheel and the angle iron for freedom of movement. What I have found is that a single trolley rolling on a beam rolls freely and easily because it is being pulled from it's center.
When I put up two parallel I beams and put a trolley on each beam to support a cross beam, things did not work as well. When I tried to move the cross beam while pulling it from it's center, it moved fairly easily. When I tried to move several feet from the center of the cross beam and move it, it would cock and bind. That was with trolleys that were supported on both sides of an I beam and no weight hanging other than the cross beam. It's possible that adjusting the clearance between the trolley and the beam may have solved the problem.
What I did was to use two trolleys on each beam and connect them with two back to back pieces of angle iron. Then I bolted my cross beam to the bottom of the angle iron. By using the dual trolleys and spacing them about a foot apart, the cocking problem was eliminated even with lots of weight on it. That's the experience I had. I would at least try to test your design before making all connections permanent.
I was thinking about it more last night after my post and realized what you mentioned above. Yes, you are correct if I just use the one pair of trolley wheels which are only spaced a few inches apart, it will likely bind for sure. I agree that the two wheels should be at least s foot apart. Looking at pics of industrial type systems, the whole affair (yellow floured) looks more like an "I" beam with some distance between the wheels/rollers in the pic below. Now to figure out what to do to solve that issue. Thanks for the heads up. More work...
You'll notice in the above pic the yellow Traveller beam/ rollers are on TOP of the support beams , huge difference in strength and stability . Your soon beams will shrink and compress , allowing the angle the twist inwards , even tightening the bolts won't help that. If the rollers ( load) was on top of the beam , it would be far stronger . Fasteners , bolts , screws , nails, should never , if at all possible , support a load .
Agree it would be better on top, but due to height issues I had to do as I did. Not sure about bolts never supporting a load as skyscrapers built with steel beams do this all the time. Half of my basement floor is supported on joists that rest atop 2" x 10"s that are lag bolted into my foundation. Remember, at most I'll be supporting 500 lbs. That's 250 lbs on each main beam. A 2" x 10" x 13'-6" span can support 1200 lbs. I have three, so each beam can support 3600 lbs, or 7200 lbs in total. The 1/2" Gr5 bolts that secure the steel L section to the joists have a shear strength of 14,000 lbs. I have six such bolts, so no danger of those bolts failing.
I really hate trying to point out something I think is wrong after you have done so much careful work......but I promise I am trying to help. You may be able to use what you have if you lengthen the trolley wheel separation. I am going to attach a picture that shows some different type trolleys, but the connecting yellow part would be similar to what might work for you. This was made from an I beam and I cut the top flat off it. The bottom flat allows a crossbeam to be bolted in place. In your case, since you have angle iron, I would put two pieces back to back so they resemble the T shaped piece in the picture. Instead of making them into one piece, I would put one on each side of the trolley and run bolts thru so the trolley is sandwiched between them. It "might" work, I just can't say for sure.
I think the best way is what I said earlier about adding supportive corner posts. It resembles the diagram you posted above. The difference is that you have a wall next to your long trooley beam, so it needs to be far enough from the wall to allow the trolley room to travel. Adding the corner posts gives you the vertical load carrying capacity you need.
On the ends of the crane in the diagram there are crossbars . All they do is tie the long rails together so they stay parallel and don't really support weight, so they are lightweight. In your case you need the long rails to be a few inches away from the wall, so your long rails need to bolt to the bottom (or top depending on what you use for the crossbar).
The crossbar now becomes weight bearing and needs to be strong. By attaching the long rails as close as you can to the corner posts, you relieve the crossbar from a lot of the weight carrying. Place the long rails far enough from the wall for the trolleys to clear easily but as close to the corner posts as you can. Use good quality bolts.
I know that the second scenario will work when assembled properly. I'm unsure if your first scenario will work the way you want. I'd really like to see you get this thing up and working satisfactorily cause once its done you will love it.
We had a drive on lift at work, big enough for full size school buses. Each side was very heavy I-beam. Down the center we had an air jack very similar to this one, https://www.ari-hetra.com/product/xla-458a-air-hydraulic-lifting-crosspiece/ . It rode on the inner flange of the I-beam, kinda like your trolley is going to. This one pictured and ours had spring loaded casters so when it was in use, it set down solid on the flange to keep it steady. The one linked goes even farther, it has outriggers that go over the top of the I-beams. Our jack had wheels about 2 feet apart on each side with teflon rub blocks top and sides. Even with the rub blocks to keep it centered, the jack would bind up due to the short 2' wheel base. If the wheels come off, not only do you drop your load, the whole beam comes down too!
What is on the back side of the bolts holding the angle iron to the wood beams? It should have steel plate or very large washers, plate would be best. The bolts are not going to sheer off, they are going to try and pull through the wood. The angle iron is going to act as a lever and try to pry the bolts out. If the two long beams you made could be mounted at a slight angle, then when in use ( under a load ) they would deflect inward and still keep the angle iron level.
I appreciate all the comments as I want to avoid any issues. Once I get the second main beam into position, I'll have a much better idea of what to do next. All I can say is that this has turned into a way bigger job than I first imagined. Going to finish installing the laundry tub tonight, and I'll leave the drywall for another time. Had the drain fittings in my hand yesterday, but today, they are nowhere to be found. Story of my life. Put stuff down, and two minutes later I can't find it. Lol...
Struggled with the plumbing last night. After much cursing and replacing of parts I had to replace the original tap as it was defective. It seems the interior surface that mates with the rubber seal of the flex hose wasn't properly machined. Of course the new laundry tub design is different from the original with regard to the drain. That's why I had to pick up a new fitting, but the new design doesn't allow for any adjustment or removal like the orginal as everything is glued together. I'm really getting tired of inferior designs all in the name of savings a few pennies. The original tub was bigger by 3" and had steel legs. Rant over.
Finished (almost) install of laundry tub below. For some reason, I couldn't upload pic yesterday.
Now back to the business of the crane. Had a look at the Shop Crane stuff @SilverJimmy mentioned earlier. That is essentially what I'm trying to replicate on a beer budget. That stuff looks great, but as he mentioned, it likely isn't cheap. I'll have something close to CAN $1000 invested into stuff just specific to the crane.
- 1 ton Princess Auto trolley $80 (on sale) regular $130
- 1/2 ton Princess Auto trolley $100
- 1/2 ton Princess Auto chain hoist $100
- used L section steel beam 1/4" x 14' ($35 each x 2)
- used steel box section beam 3.75" x 1.75" x 8' ($25 ea x 2)
- 1/4" steel plate to adapt to 1 ton trolley ($30)
- 2" x 10" x 16' ($40 ea x 6)
- 2" X 6" X 8' ($10 ea X 6)
- 2" X 4" X 8' ($3 ea X 6)
- hardware ($120)
Ziggster, Ekimmierbo , expanded on what I mentioned earlier in this post. One thing you are going to have a problem with is the short tapered wheel that is on your roller. They are designed fir tapered I -beams and are held tight with steel. This is going to cause you problems. This is why earlier I recommend the upside down angle iron and a vee groove roller . The more weight you put on this set up, the more it’s going to want to spread the supports. You could take the rollers off and have some one with a lathe take that taper off, even give it a little negative taper to move the load inward on your support beam/ angle iron.
You’ve got a lot of time invested in this set up and it will work. Just may have to change a few things about the rollers to achieve the results you desire. Maybe! Lol
They make rollers , in industry ,that have a bolt through the center and can be rather large. You could aquire four of these spread the out two/three feet with brackets, then bolt another unequal side angle iron under your existing support iron , trapping the roller in a track. The bolts could be back far enough as to not interfere with the rollers and high enough to trap the rollers. Just a though.
Under heavy load, V-8 engine, the angle iron bolted to the wall will flex, somewhat!
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