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One More Time for all the Old Times (305 Chevy post)...

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Fat Hack, Jul 5, 2012.

  1. Fat Hack
    Joined: Nov 30, 2002
    Posts: 7,709

    Fat Hack
    Member
    from Detroit

    It is invariably true that no matter where you go, there you are...and that while you are there, things will happen as they will, events will take place, and most shit just natually comes Full Circle. It's the way of Life, and small block Chevys (and 70s throwback misfits who build them) are really no exception to the rule. You can't escape them, for they will come find YOU, and there you are (where you be)...with yet ANOTHER mouse mill on your engine stand and try as you might to run and hide, it will beacon you hither and work begins anew...

    I've been gone a while, adrift in the murky waters of everyday drudgery and all sorts of things from "Hey, how 'bout that heart attack?!" to "Damn, you've lost weight!" to off topic interests and blind alleys. I've returned and found a mailbox full of PMs, mainly asking about 305 and 307 Chevrolet engine building tips, ideas, conjecture and Tom-foolery...along with other topics from electrical diagnosis, carburetor tech and personal issues. I will try to answer them over the next week or so, but I thought maybe perhaps another new 305 Chebby post would be appreciated by those who have an interest in screwing one together for themselves.

    Last summer, I did a full rebuild on a 350 Chevrolet engine taken from a 1977 Corvette and sold to me as 'rebuilt', and naturally, it was anything but! However, it came with a truckload of extra parts that made it well worth the price, so no complaints. In the end, the only parts re-used in that build were the engine block, head castings and aluminum intake manifold. EVERYTHING else was discarded and replaced, as is the Way when doing a thorough and complete, professional quality rebuild.

    To sum that one up, it was a typical 3970010 block (two bolt mains) that I prepped myself (more on this as the ensuing 305 build unfolds later in this thread) and then sent to our company machinist to be tanked, bored .030", honed for iron rings, new freeze and galley plugs installed, new cam bearings and then returned to me for assembly. The stock crank was bent and scored, so it was discarded and replaced with a fresh one from my local engine parts warehouse along with matching King bearings.

    The rods were reconditioned units with ARP bolts, connected to a set of Silv-O-Lite flat-top cast pistons that I spent many hours massaging to smooth off all sharp edges from the 'eyebrows' to eliminate hot spots which can lead to detonation issues. (And swore I'd never build an engine with eight cylinders again!). Rings were Hastings iron rings that had to be fitted and gapped one-by-one into each cylinder (again cursing number of cylinders).

    From there, the engine received an Isky 270 Mega Cam and lifter kit, Cloyes double-roller timing set, a new stock replacement harmonic balancer along with a brand new long style water pump and a new stock replacement oil pan with a Fel Pro one-piece gasket (a must have!). THe oil pump was the standard Melling unit with a new pickup screen and hardened drive rod, and I installed a new fuel pump pushrod to round out the short block assembly.

    The heads were the stock 1.94/1.50 castings that I opened up all of the oil drianback holes on and sent to our machinist for a complete rebuild, including all new valves, stock springs, titanium retainers and HD locks with bronze guides and teflon seals. The pushrods and rocker arms were stock replacement units, and the external sheetmetal was all stock to retain a factory-new, stock appearance.

    That 355 cubic inch mill ended up in a 73 El Camino out in Oklahoma where reports indicate that the new owner is thrilled with it.

    With that task completed, I find myself with an LG4 305 block out of an 83 Firebird on my engine stand and the whole journey seems to be starting up again. This time, I will attempt to photograph and post the pictures here as this latest small block comes to life over the next few months.

    So, everything old is new again...or any old small block Chevy will do...but if you have a 305, it's as good a candidate as any (and better than many!) for an in-depth, comprehensive rebuild...so stay tuned and we'll see how this one shakes out.

    But first, here's a quick peek at the 355 engine from last summer's rebuilding operations!
     

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  2. Dooley
    Joined: May 29, 2002
    Posts: 2,697

    Dooley
    Member
    from Buffalo NY

    like a ghost from the past...thanks and welcome back!
     
  3. Hell must have frozen over!?

    Welcome back.
     
  4. Fat Hack
    Joined: Nov 30, 2002
    Posts: 7,709

    Fat Hack
    Member
    from Detroit

    The current project being a 305 Chevy block (and the topic of this thread), I thought I'd take a moment to outline The Plan for this one and sum up it's sad and sorry state, and how it came to be where it is...in my garage on the operating table.

    Most of it's past history is unknown, except that it was installed in my nephew's old 83 Firebird and was the victim of some typical idiot's attempt at a performance rebuild. It was amazing to see how many mistakes one jackass could make in the course of a single engine rebuild, and it all came together as one big dud with no oil pressure, coolant leaks galore and a host of unspeakable suffering on the part of an innocent 305. The crankshaft, though straight and true, is badly scored, the bearings were toast, the rings had been fused to the pistons, the oil pump came out in pieces (many of which were 'glued' to the bottom of the oil pan in a slimy oil-antifreeze goo) and the water jackets are packed with a bucket full of various stop-leak and whiz-bang chemical 'fixes' that failed stupendously in prolonging this doomed engine's life.

    So, that's it in a nutshell. As with last year's 350 build, I am once again starting with a heavily abused and poorly built core, throwing away everything but the bare block, and starting from scratch. This motor, as with the 350 before it, came to me as a standard bore block, so it's a virgin to the Sunnen CK-10 boring machine...though not for too much longer.

    But all of that machine work is yet to come. The very first thing required is a lot of manual labor with files and sanding mediums to prep the block long before the first machine comes into play. Everyone wants to throw mail-order parts at a hastily 'machined' block and build the next five thousand horsepower small block Chevy or whatever, but I take things along a slower, more meticulous path, because I feel that the end reult is truly worth the added effort.

    BASIC BLOCK PREP 101...

    Before you do ANYTHING, you MUST start with a block WORTH the time, expense and labor of taking forth to become a complete and running engine. In my book, that means that all external casting flash is removed so that no sharp and jagged edges are left on the outside of your block. Every casting will differ in the amount and severity of external flash, and it still amazes me at how many high dollar street rods and street machines I see at cruise nights and car shows sporting 'rebuilt' engines with jagged flash all over them. It reflects poorly upon the owner as well as the rebuilder, and it is so easy to eliminate it, that there's really no excuse for skipping such a basic first step and putting another half-assed, sloppy 'rebuild' out there.

    I use hand files myself, because I like that 'bonding time' with an engine, and I like to 'feel' it taking shape beneath my soiled, bloody fingers. You can use various Dremmels and power tools if desired, but my preference is to tackle it by hand. It really doesn't take THAT long, and I like the steady progress and control afforded me by hand filing and sanding.

    With the outside of the block worked over, I move into the lifter galley and really do a number on the drainback holes that allow oil to flow back to the pan. You will find flash inside of these holes, and sometimes the opening itself is obscured or blocked by casting flash. You will need to remove that flash, at very least, and I like to smooth the contours of the holes to aid in oil flow. No need to go hog hog wild here, but a common-sense approach is a very good bet.

    There's also the holes in the front of the galley that allow oil to flow into the timing chain area, and I give those a good massaging ala file as well. I like to create a smooth, easy path for oil to flow, so I find it worth the time it takes to get it right.

    Also, there are the small, round holes near the lifter bores that allow oil to drain down and flow over the camshaft. In years past, some engine builders would actually plug these holes with threaded inserts to prevent oil splash into the galley from the camshaft at high RPM levels, but we live in 2012 currently, and for a street motor attempting to survive on today's motor oils, I feel a little work on these holes to provide as much lubrication to the cam as possible is a very smart move. Of course, you will probably run a motor oil with a high ZDDP (zinc) content in an older, flat-tappet engine such as this, but it doesn't hurt to stack the deck in your favor any way you can.

    On this particular build, I also sanded the entire lifter galley to a much, much smoother, but not quite polished finish. I personally don't like the age-old 'shortcut' of painting the valley with Glyptol or Rustoleum, when it can be hand sanded and blended real nice for zero dollars, and there is no chance of having any paint flake off and make it's way through the engine over time. Better to take the extra time, invest some good old 'elbow grease' into the project, and do it RIGHT...for a result you can be proud of, and one that will show anyone who goes inside the engine years down the road that it was the product of a dedicated craftsman who understands the value of covering the very basics to produce a long-lasting, quality product.

    At this point in the game, I flip the block over and do a little work in the bottom of the block. Don't bother with the bottom of the bores, but anywhere you see extrenuous casting flash, go ahead and carefully remove it. With that done, I run thread chasers through all threaded holes in the entire block. Time consuming? Maybe, but it is a vital step if you want to insure that your engine goes together smoothly and that your torque specs are accurately applied durring assembly.

    There, that wasn't so hard, was it? I'll snap a few photos of the prepped block and try to get them up here in the next day or so. At this point, it's ready for a trip to my machine shop guy when he can work me into his busy schedule, but in the meantime there will be parts to buy and things to recondition and prep for use in the final assembly process.

    And so, it begins...!
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2012

  5. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN

    I have to say, you're just about the ONLY reason I haven't pawned off the 305 I got for my "temporary" engine for my Model A build. Since I picked it up "running" over a year ago, coming with an Edelbrock Performer intake and 4bbl carb (maybe a cam..not sure)for 300 bucks, I've considered MANY times selling it for flathead parts for the 50 flathead that will likely be the "permanent" motor going in at some uspecified date...but I just CAN'T bring myself to be rid of the little slug.

    Your old article about their value has been the only thing getting me to hold onto it, instead of selling it and maybe the flathead and getting a hemi. I look forward to seeing your build up on this, and maybe seeing some of the more simple upgrades that can be done to hop these little guys up.

    While I would LOVE something flashy like a hemi or flathead, I want to drive the crap out of my car when its done...and you're not going to find flathead or early hemi parts at the local auto shops when the inevitable breakdown occurs. I also won't be cruising around at 20+ MPG on the flashy ones, either. All that added up is what keeps me hanging onto it.

    Are you going to make it look more "classic" along the way? That's one thing that bothers me about these things, the center bolt valve covers and lack of mechanical fuel pumps (on mine at least....81 engine) mean that I'll have to see what I can do to make it more "traditional" looking. At least I lucked out, any engine post 84 can't have an electric pump here in CA, I think!

    Anyway...REALLY looking forward to the build!!!
     
  6. belair
    Joined: Jul 10, 2006
    Posts: 8,647

    belair
    Member

    Glad you are back, really glad-I have enjoyed your posts, look forward to this one.
     
  7. Fat Hack
    Joined: Nov 30, 2002
    Posts: 7,709

    Fat Hack
    Member
    from Detroit

    poboyross...a 305 from 1981 should have a mechanical fuel pump from the factory, and would not have come with the center-bolt valve covers. That began in 1986/87, depending on model.

    You can take steps to dress up (dress down?!) most 1986 and earlier small blocks to look more..."trad friendly", shall we say...with vintage valve covers, intakes with oil fill tubes and the like, but that's amongst the 'finishing touches'. The basic internal build-up principles are fairly consistent, regardless of how you decorate the final product.

    Hard to beat a lowly 305 for smooth, reliable power blended with decent fuel economy!
     
  8. Fat Hack
    Joined: Nov 30, 2002
    Posts: 7,709

    Fat Hack
    Member
    from Detroit

    WHY A 305?!?

    To answer that age-old question is to review simple economics, as well as perhaps a little 'luck of the draw'. If you have a 350 Chevy engine, there is really no cheaper way to go than that. It's a time-proven mule that simply WORKS, and it is tough to beat on a budget, assuming you have one handy or can get one cheap.

    The primary difference in the cost of building a 305 vs the cost of rebuilding a 350 falls mainly on the pistons. 350 pistons cost less than comparable 305 pistons. The other components are mostly the same, but you can expect to pay a little more for your pistons when building a 305 engine. That's really it, folks.

    I like the 305 because it is every bit as versatile as it's big brother 350, and they are common as nails, and can be had for free many times, or just a few bucks. They have a 'small motor stigma' to them that keeps them from being desirable to most knuckle-dragging 'gearheads', but most don't realize that all they are is a 350 engine with a smaller bore (the stroke is the same).

    If you compare factory horsepower ratings, you will discover that on a HP-per-cubic-inch basis, the 305 actually out-performs the 350 in some cases. Chevrolet was keenly aware of this, and equipped many 305s with smaller cam profiles and retarded cam timing to keep it's new economy V8 in step behind the optional (more expensive) 350 engines offered in many of the same vehicles. All things being equal (camshaft specs, cam timing, ignition timing, carburetion and exhaust systems), you probably couldn't tell the difference between a 305 and a 350 from the driver's seat. (I proved that when selling my old Pontiac with a mild 305 in it. Nobody wanted it when I told them it was a 305, but when I told them nothing and they test drove it, they happily assumed it was a 350.)

    Hate 'em if you must, but you can't dismiss them. Not in this era of staggering gas prices and a rapidly depleting supply of old 350 and 327 engines out there on the cheap. The 305 is here to stay for a good long time, and just makes sense as an affordable, reliable and impressive performer if built correctly, just like most any other engine.
     
  9. pitman
    Joined: May 14, 2006
    Posts: 5,037

    pitman

    Hack...even if its true, you and several of us are...in the best of ways.
    What a great story in how to go about prepping a block and breathing new life into it.
    Welcome back brother.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2012
  10. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN


    Hmmm....that's interesting. I swore I ran the numbers off of it and they came back 81. I musta typed something in wrong. It has the bolted on block off plate in place of the pump, and the cavity is in there for the rod, but no rod!

    I reckon if it is indeed post 84, I'll either have to find another engine, or "dress" this one up and avoid Johnny Law!
     
  11. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 47,979

    squirrel
    Member

    The one piece rear seal came about roughly the same time that they did away with mechanical fuel pumps, and moved the valve cover bolts to the wrong place.
     
  12. poboyross
    Joined: Apr 29, 2009
    Posts: 2,142

    poboyross
    Member
    from West TN

    Well, mine has a removable block off plate and cavity for the rod, how would I go about putting a mechanical fuel pump on there? I saw a kit where you have to attach these jigs and drill through parts of the block, but I'm not sure if that's necessary on this one. Any info on how to determine this would be great. Sorry, not trying to hijack!
     
  13. BELLM
    Joined: Nov 16, 2002
    Posts: 2,588

    BELLM
    Member

    Welcome back!
     
  14. martell06
    Joined: Nov 19, 2006
    Posts: 47

    martell06
    Member

    Welcome back Hack! It's funny because I just re-read your old 305 thread last night. Great to see "against the grain" thinking backed by some real world experience
     
  15. bigalturk1
    Joined: Sep 23, 2010
    Posts: 367

    bigalturk1
    Member

    I've done those same rebuilds, many times. What pisses me off is when I send out the heads. They do the required work but once in a while I'll get a customer back with a minor skip in the engine. The valve spring are checked at the machine shop when the heads are done but when I inquire about the bad ones that I get from time to time, I'm told they don't check "Each" one! Either that, or if the engine was once over heated,The valve springs get "Mushy", after they warm up a few times...WTF! Guess who loses out on that! Now a days, I pull the engine and tell the customer to either take it to someone to rebuild it or buy a crate motor, I've done enough "Free repairs"
    PS: I've used 4 machine shops throughout the years!
     
  16. Bob K
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 5,773

    Bob K
    Member Emeritus
    from Antigo Wi.

    Well I'll be damned !!!!!!!!!

    I hope our email conversation this spring had something to do with your long awaited return. I truelly am glad to see you on here again and have missed your post's as they are always full of usefull info.

    B:DB
     
  17. flatheadpete
    Joined: Oct 29, 2003
    Posts: 10,113

    flatheadpete
    Member
    from Burton, MI

    Holy Crap!! Missed ya, Greg!
     
  18. young'n'poor
    Joined: Jan 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,280

    young'n'poor
    Member
    from Anoka. MN

    It's good to see you back! I recently picked up a 307 for a steal of a deal based solely on your other threads dealing with them.
     
  19. Look what the cat dragged in!!! Welcome back!
     
  20. bcarlson
    Joined: Jul 21, 2005
    Posts: 935

    bcarlson
    Member

    Good to see you're still in (presumably) one piece!

    -Ben
     
  21. pitman
    Joined: May 14, 2006
    Posts: 5,037

    pitman

    21 hits! Almost gone...viral. :p

    At least we're back to full steam now!

    Bumpedy-bump.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2012
  22. FlynBrian
    Joined: Oct 5, 2007
    Posts: 759

    FlynBrian
    Member

    Never underestimate a 305cu. I have one from 1981 donor camaro that was bored.030 making it 310cu with 1.94int 1.60ex heads, perf rpm intake, small cam. 650 mech sec holley carb long tube headers had it in a 63 Nova SS in 2001, 2002 timeframe it ran Strong, I suprised quite few late model muscle cars with it. I put a 283cu in the Nova when I sold it to a friend, kept the 305cu. for a future project. Great little motors can pick them up cheap, really good for a light hot rod.
    Welcome back!
     
  23. slammed
    Joined: Jun 10, 2004
    Posts: 8,151

    slammed
    Member

    The return of a man whose writing, tech, and humor made the HAMB special. Right-freakin'-on! PS John Buterra held this guy in high regard.
     
  24. Dooley
    Joined: May 29, 2002
    Posts: 2,697

    Dooley
    Member
    from Buffalo NY

    What grit do you use for sanding the lifter galley?

    I painted mine with rustoleum and it has held up but sanding sounds better...
     
  25. Fat Hack
    Joined: Nov 30, 2002
    Posts: 7,709

    Fat Hack
    Member
    from Detroit

    I used various grits based on what I had on hand. I'll take a look at them tonight and let you know. Not much to it, start off with a pretty coarse grit and work your way down. It doesn't have to be a mirror finish, you'll get it WAY smoother with just a few hours sanding, after massaging all the sharp edges and drainback holes with various files.
     
  26. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 47,979

    squirrel
    Member

    I like the build story...keep it up!

    It's nice to be able to spend time with an engine, instead of being in a rush to get it put together.
     
  27. Fat Hack
    Joined: Nov 30, 2002
    Posts: 7,709

    Fat Hack
    Member
    from Detroit

    THE POLITICS OF DANCING...

    Before getting too much further into this deal, I thought I'd take a few moments to discuss the inevitable question of whether or not it's "worth it" to do this type of rebuild versus just buying a crate engine.

    This comes up every time someone asks me to quote them a price for one of my typical rebuilds, and the retort usually goes something along the lines of "I can buy a crate motor for that much (or less)!". Yes, in some cases you can, but you have to know up front that with a generic, mass-produced crate engine (or "parts motors" as I call them), you are getting just that...an engine built in assembly line fashion typically using all of the cheapest components China has to offer. You also don't get hand-prepped blocks with high attention paid to details such as deburring and smoothing the paths for oil return, and most crate engines are not hand assembled with each component being fitted and measured to exacting tolerances.

    (Ring gaps are good example. To do them RIGHT, you need to fit each ring into the cylinder it will be going into and file the gaps to spec. There can be very minor fluctuations in the machining process, so I like to fit each piston to a specific cylinder and then file the ring gaps to work with that piston in that cylinder. More on this later in this build, but it's just something you get from a hand assembled engine that you normally won't get in a generic crate engine).

    Parts and materials also play a BIG role in the quality of your engine, and in the final price. Crate engines, again, are built with profit margins in mind and as such, employ the cheapest available parts and materials in most cases. When building an engine yourself (or paying someone to build one for you) by hand, you can select the parts and materials that best measure up to your expected standards of quality. I have the good fortune of being able to buy my engine parts directly from a wholesale warehouse that my employer uses, so I am able to buy the exact parts I want at a very attractive price. I do pass these savings on to anyone who has me do an engine for them, but again, I get the static about my estimates versus the cost of the cheapest available crate engine, and this whole conversation begins anew.

    While it's true that an engine is more than the sum total of it's parts (it is really MUCH more than that...craftsmanship and attention to detail play a HUGE role), the truth is that you can't build a quality product with inferior quality parts and materials. I use Fel Pro gaskets, but I don't stop with just buying a typical rebuild gasket kit, I go ahead and add a Fel Pro one-piece oil pan gasket (where applicable) because they are SO much better than the age-old four-piece designs, and you can get them for most common engines. I also use the better rear main seal kit from Fel Pro as well as their best timing cover seal kit (or the Timken equivalent). Money spent here helps insure a bottom end free from aggravating oil leaks, and just serves to improve the overall finished quality of your engine against the typical crate motor.

    Other internal engine components are very critical as well, and even more so in today's world, where inferior parts quality via overseas manufacturers and the declining quality of off-the-shelf motor oils are the norm. For stock rebuilds, I find the Silv-O-Lite pistons hard to beat for the money, but you can always step up to Mahle, SRP or other quality companies for designs more suited for higher performance applications. Again, my warehouse sells these brands, so I can buy them at a discount, as can anyone who works for an auto parts supplier or knows someone who does.

    Cams and lifters deserve a chapter all to themselves these days. There was a 'dark era' in our hobby where flat tappet lifters were failing at an alarming rate and wiping out brand new camshafts with them. This happened when much of the manufacturing went overseas, and it flooded the market with inferior quality parts, again, affecting many engine builds in a negative manner. Today, most cam companies are hip to this problem and have made great strides towards resolving the issue. I still like to buy old NOS (new old stock) flat tappet lifters when I can find them...ones made in the 80s or earlier, but when that isn't an option, most NEW ones are up to par if you take precautions with assembly and use the correct oils and follow recommended break-in procedures. There will be more on this later in the thread when it comes to assembly time, but suffice it to say, be aware of what you are buying when it comes to cam and lifters for your engine. Crower has a new line of Cam Saver lifters that are aimed at prolonging cam and lifter life when installed and used correctly, and they are worth the added cost. Not something you will likely find in a crate motor, but something you can readily buy just about anywhere.

    So, what DOES it cost to rebuild a basic small block Chevy in your garage today? My estimates start at about $1600 and go up from there, depending on condition of the core and the level of performance desired. True, you can find 'rebuilt' long blocks for less than that, but you get what you pay for. I will be keeping this 305 project on a tight leash as far as the budget goes, and will report all costs here so that you can see for yourself what you can expect to get for what you are spending. That said, however, I won't be cutting any corners on quality, and that's the important factor. Where possible, I will list alternatives to the parts and materials I am using that may be more to your liking or more in line with your own budget, but in the end, this will be a well-built, reliable performer with economy in mind but longevity as as an end goal. Not an all-out "race motor" by any means, but rather one that you can drop into anything and drive with peace of mind.

    So, is it worth the cost to do a complete and thorough rebuild instead of buying an over-the-counter crate engine? That's something you have to decide on an individual basis, but beware of false economy, and know up front what you are getting for your hard-earned dollars!
     
  28. Fat Hack
    Joined: Nov 30, 2002
    Posts: 7,709

    Fat Hack
    Member
    from Detroit

    I feel your pain, and that's a very real concern, especially in this day and age. I've sort of lucked out in that I can buy my parts direct from the warehouse and inspect them for quality at the time of purchase, and also in that I have the machine work done by a trusted fellow employee who is 'old school' in his approach to machining and assembly techniques. Building a good working relationship with your machine shop is a MUST if you are to get a quality job, and it's worth 'shopping around' until you find the right one. Fortunately, in my case, I have 'my guy' and another shop even closer that I can use who also does excellent work.

    Many mechanics and shop owners lately have told me the same things you were just saying, about being stuck with warranty work due to neglegence on the part of the machine shop. It's tough times out there today, where quality has taken a backseat to quantity in almost every aspect of our lives, but if you look carefully, you can still find trustworthy people who still do a reputable job...they're just much harder to find than they used to be.
     
  29. terryble
    Joined: Sep 25, 2008
    Posts: 541

    terryble
    Member
    from canada

    I am really enjoying this, I have always thought the little brother 305 was an underestimated motor I have had a few and they were excellent. Oh, and welcome back.
     
  30. Fat Hack
    Joined: Nov 30, 2002
    Posts: 7,709

    Fat Hack
    Member
    from Detroit

    Tried to post a few pics but of course this computer will have none of that.

    I really hate these things sometimes!!
     

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