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Hot Rods OK; opinions, please

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by GTS225, Sep 3, 2014.

  1. GTS225
    Joined: Jul 2, 2006
    Posts: 1,200

    GTS225
    Member

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  2. henry29
    Joined: Sep 5, 2007
    Posts: 2,837

    henry29
    Member

    More taillights,

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. Jalopy Joker
    Joined: Sep 3, 2006
    Posts: 27,689

    Jalopy Joker
    Member

    so, what did you start out with? sure about rear suspension, front head lights/bracket, long steering column, etc?
     
  4. F-ONE
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 3,045

    F-ONE
    Member
    from Alabama


  5. yes the wheel/column looks a little long but that's an easy fix.....otherwise.....you did a real good job - so start driving it a little and reflect on it.....I like it...
     
  6. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 15,471

    Squablow
    Member

    Is the steering linkage in front of the axle? That's a big no-no for Ackerman. Is that a homemade friction shock setup on the front? That's neat if it is and it works.

    If you're open to opinions, I think the headlight bar and the rear push bumper are kinda awkward looking. I personally would prefer to see the headlights on individual stands, coming from the sides of the frames and set back a bit so they're alongside the grille on each side. I like the idea of the push bumper, I just feel like it would look better with two somewhat taller, maybe slightly S shaped vertical bars as opposed to the current setup, which looks a bit too homemade for my taste.

    I agree on the tail lights too, seems like a lot going on there and kinda tacked on looking. A single pair of lights cut into the "tailgate" would be a lot cleaner looking. The coil spring rear suspension really stands out in the rear too, but not necessarily in a bad way. I'd either paint it black so it hides better, or paint it silver so it stands out as a focal point. A lot of 60's rods experimented with coil springs like yours.

    Overall, the car has good proportions. It doesn't sit crazy low and the grille height is right on, both of which are nice to see. I'm hoping it's also going to receive some final paint. For the most part, I like it.
     
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  7. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 15,471

    Squablow
    Member

    Also, are the wheels/tires permanent? They look a bit more dirt track or even Jeep looking to me, versus the rest of the car which looks more 60's style T bucket. I don't dislike either of those things, but not sure if they go together well.
     
  8. Martin Harris
    Joined: Aug 3, 2014
    Posts: 321

    Martin Harris

    Great little T. Squablow is right about the steering linkage. Here in New Zealand they wouldn't pass it for street registration.
    I'd be putting a little dress on the motor, like maybe a scoop over the carb, and I'm a fan of vintage wheeltrims, something other than the usual 3 bar spinners though.
    I think the headlight bar is a tad too "agricultural", needs something a bit more stylish.
    Maybe keep the patina and add a little aged signwriting?
    Depends what overall theme you're after and what you wanna spend, mate.
    It's a cool car anyhow. Love the inline engine.
     
  9. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    Ok, you asked. The tires have to go , look very military Jeep like. Fronts should be shorter and skinnier than the back ones. The steering column is way too long, shorten it up. What is up with all the tail lights ?

    But the main thing that jumps out at me is the rear view. Those tires are way too skinny and stuck out too far from the bed.

    Sorry, not being critical, just answering your question. Also, how does that steering column connect to the box ? The column goes almost straight into the dash but the box is way below that and I can't figure out how the two are connected. :confused:

    Don
     
  10. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 15,471

    Squablow
    Member

    I just noticed this too. I don't understand how the steering column/box setup works, would like to see a view of it under the dash or without the body on it. The box looks really low, and at the angle it appears to be mounted, there would have to be two U joints connecting it to the column, with the connecting rod between them totally vertical. That would create some crazy torsional effect on the column, especially in a fiberglass body without substantial cowl/firewall reinforcement.

    Maybe I'm missing something, but the steering geometry looks like it needs to be reworked front to back.
     
  11. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    Yeah, the column and box are on two entirely different planes. Can't figure out any way they could be connected except for bicycle chain (I hope not :eek:)

    Don

    [​IMG]
     
  12. GTS225
    Joined: Jul 2, 2006
    Posts: 1,200

    GTS225
    Member

    **************************************************************************

    Questions, good! Ok.....It's a late 60's or early 70's MAS body shell. Typical 1.5"x3" ladder-type frame with a rear kick-up. A buddy got it in "kit" form about twelve years ago, and we've been rounding up parts for the last five or so years. Finally started on it last december, and built it pretty much as the "kit"seemed to indicate.
    Taillights; It's what we had available. The lowers are taillights, the uppers are script stop lamps. It seemed the easiest as far as wiring was concerned, and fulfills the DMV's requirements for titling and inspection.
    Headlights/bracket. That bracket is definitely open to change. Again, it was easy to get built, but really came out nowhere near as graceful as I'd like it to be. The headlights are '47 IH, KB8 fixtures. I sorta like them, but it sounds like you all think they're out of proportion. I figured that since a T had original lights of what.....11"?, that these really wouldn't seem out of place.
    Rear suspension; This is how the "kit" was setup. Is it similar to original T or A?....no. We did have to correct the geometry a bit, but it seems to work ok, although a bit stiff to my gluteous. (Maybe it's just that it's a light car, and I'm not used to it.)
    Steering column; Yes, the side shot sure does make it look long, but it's a comfortable fit, sitting in the seat. Now, we did fit it without any upholstery allowance, and that may have been a mistake on our part. It won't be very hard to yank it out and cut it down, should it need it. As far as the angles are concerned, you guys are right. The column ducks just under the dash at that angle, with a decent mouning bracket attaching it to the firewall. Used a double u-joint on top, and a single joint on the bottom to connect up to the box. Yes, there's a support bearing on the intermediate shaft. We made that dumb mistake already, and it cost me an extra double joint. The intermediate shaft does run vertically down the inside of the firewall.
    Wheels/tires: I like the solid disc look, and I'm thinking the addition of spiders will help those out. The tires were something I picked up on the cheap, and I do want to run slightly wider on the rear. A friend thinks I need 12"-14" meats out back. I keep thinking that won't help a late 50's-early 60's jalopy look. They might not get changed out next week, but it's in the cards.

    Have to have the state do it's thinkg before I can hit the street. How about fenders? I've got a set that I had planned on using. Bike fenders front, and slightly wider versions rear. I'll post more on that bumper later.

    Roger
     
  13. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 15,471

    Squablow
    Member

    I don't think the headlights themselves are bad looking or disproportionate at all, just the bracket and placement.

    Frankly, the steering sounds super dangerous and poorly thought out/engineered. The front tie rod is bad, and the column to box layout sounds awful. I don't mean that to be disrespectful, but it needs to be said. A T bucket needs to have ZERO U joints in the steering column. Box mounts to frame, column comes off of it straight. With the 6 there should be ample clearance to make that happen.
     
  14. GTS225
    Joined: Jul 2, 2006
    Posts: 1,200

    GTS225
    Member

    I find this statement interesting. For decades a front mounted tie rod was acceptable, and even earned it's own nickname, but today it's no longer "traditional" or acceptable? Please explain the thought processes here, because I'm missing something about it.

    Here, again, I'm scratching my skull over this. Isn't the idea to have at least one angle, even if slight, to prevent the column from being driven back into the driver in a front-end collision? Please clarify the reasoning.

    As far as the overall package, the original idea was to eventually try to get to a boattail T speedster appearance, hence the equal-size tires. I do have to agree that as a package, it isn't working. I'm not too sure I'm anywhere close to speedster, either. To be honest, I'm not a big fan of the little, cheesy p/u box on the back of these. I thought about hacking it off, smoothing the rear of the tub, and hanging a keg tank out back, but I couldn't make it work in my head. Just seemed too 80's to me.

    OK; the bumper. I had some outdated info that indicated Iowa required bumpers for the titling inspection, and already had the pieces cut, incorporating the license plate mount into it. Figured I'd go ahead and burn it together as long as I had the material used up for it anyway. It's designed to plug into a 1-1/4" reciever, and be removed when I pull a small cargo trailer. (Not much cargo space in a T, ya know.) I've since learned that bumpers, (and fenders), are no longer a requirement. I may still go with a bumper, but I'm thinking a smaller "bumperette" with the plate mount in it made out of round tube, with half-ball caps on the ends. ( I'm visualizing Squablow's suggestion, and starting to like the picture. Shorten the bumper to just wide enough to flank the plate with the vertical "S" bars?)

    Somebody mentioned the front shocks; Another state requirement is to have a "damper" of some type at each corner to stop any kind of cycling effect in the suspension. These are made by my hand, and do have some effect. I think they can be better with a material change, but that seemed a rather convenient place to put them.

    I'm liking that at least Squablow feels the cowl/grille relationship are ok. I was worried about that , and spent more than a few minutes measuring and visualizing. The grille braceing back to the firewall throws a bit of an illusion into things due to the slight downward incline, but it's real close.

    Roger
     
  15. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    Roger, I'll address the first question about the tie rod in front of the axle. This subject always brings out people on both sides of the argument and this time is no different. It is not the PERFECT way to do it because it kinda messes up aackerman, and on hard turns (like parking) the inside tire will scrub a little. HOWEVER, there are a million T buckets and other cars running around with that setup and they go down the road just fine.

    I had that same setup on my 23 modified because it was so low there was no room for the tie rod behind. I drove that car for 3 years, and on several 500 mile trips, and it handled exactly the way it should. Like I always say, there is the perfect world and there is the real world. Of all the sins you can commit when building a car, aackerman being a little off is the least of them.

    Don

    This is how I had to do mine and I drove the car all over, and hard, in rain and on very rough roads. Never had an issue with it.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2014
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  16. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 19,078

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Don't you dare scrap that! I will drive all of the way there with the trailer, and cash you out!

    Redo the steering, and get a leaf spring in the back. Grab a crossmember from an A, and a transverse leaf.

    Grind, fill, sand, paint, everything.

    Rubber, wheels, tail lights, interior, and you're GOLDEN!
     
  17. Mr 42
    Joined: Mar 27, 2003
    Posts: 1,216

    Mr 42
    Member
    from Sweden

    UNIcruise14021c.JPG My opinion are.
    1: You need a new set of tires, to get some rubber rake.
    2: The parts used at the end of the steering rod's is unsafe, please go back and use proper parts, before entering the road. The life you save can be your own
     
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  18. Don's Hot Rods
    Joined: Oct 7, 2005
    Posts: 8,319

    Don's Hot Rods
    Member
    from florida

    Is that a clevis end in the top red encircled area ? If so, that has to go. Rod ends are ok, clevises are not.

    Don
     
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  19. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 19,078

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  20. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 15,471

    Squablow
    Member

    Ackerman principle means if you drew an imaginary line between the king pin and the tie rod end and followed it back, it would pass through the center of the rearend. If it does not, in a turn, the tires will "scrub", they won't be allowed to turn at the rate they should. Annoying when parking, possibly dangerous at high speeds.

    It's possible to mount the tie rod in front of the axle and still have Ackerman alignment, but it would require bending the steering arm outward to line it up. That's how the old Total Performance kits were done. Not sure if you'll be able to achieve that here. What you have will steer the wheels, but it's not the safest setup.

    As for the column, I think the U joint setup you have now is going to cause a lot of binding and flex at the firewall, unless you've really got that beefed up a ton. Turning the wheel is going to make the column want to shift side to side, and with a long column like that, and the extreme angle to the steering box, I just don't see that working. Post a pic of what it looks like behind the dash. I could be wrong.

    As for the accident thing, if the column is mounted solid enough to turn the wheel without flexing, I don't think the U joints are going to matter in a crash. You're still going to take a steering wheel to the chest. Seat belts become way more important at that point.

    Here's my T roadster frame. The box is mounted further forward than yours but I'd bet the steering wheel position is very similar to yours once the body is in place (I need the space to work the pedals too, I assume that's why you did yours long.)

    I think if you had your box mounted further forward, with a straight column coming back, and your tie rod behind the axle, it would steer and handle a lot better than it does. I'm not saying any of this to be critical, I know how much work this stuff is (a lot of my chassis was done when I got it so I can't even take credit for this layout). I just want to get it out there for you to consider.

    IMG_20140824_194059.jpg
     
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  21. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    This is a nice hot rod, but it still needs some work!

    Especialy the steering! Some of it is plain wrong and dangerous!
    I would move the steering box up so it goes thru the frame, and sits longer forward so you get more straight line through to you steering wheel. And more of the collum in front of the firewall.
    If you are concerned about you safety, build a colapsing steering collum, not with U-joints.
    Do some lightning of that damper set up, that is to much of a focal point. Racing hole would make it awesome.

    But the rest is only small things.
    Rear lights is to much ad-on-look.
    Rear push bar and light set up is too agricultural.
    And the windshield could have a slight rake.
    And the tires dont do the car justis.

    But with all that out of the way, you did good.

    I love the headlights, I love the leaning tower of power, I love windscreen hight, I love the tube axel and the rims, but would love them more if the rears where wide.

    Don't feel bad, becaus it aint all that bad!
     
  22. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    Don/Dons hot rod shop,
    What a tease, just one picture, of a car that deserves more!
    And then there is two rods in that pictures, Please show more.
    Maby thats the kind of help the OP needs
     
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  23. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    I come back to look at your car, and for the most part a really like it!

    I Think I look over you pictures every two hours, and it looks like you started out with some Real good intesions and made Real good work.
    But at some point you went; Okay, now I just wonna go ride this thing.
    I did that ones, and had to redo alot of things.

    Would you min posting more picture, some from earlyer on in the build, and some of the rear suspension. I actualy dig the ideer with coilspring and hairpins. I thought about doing the same thing.
    Is your set up with one or two tourque arms on top? Or are you running a panhard rod that dosen't show in the picture?

    And if you could get 5.5/6 inch rear rims put on your hub, that will change the whole car!

    Ever bin to the bucket of ugly threat on here? That is the holy grail, or mekka for T buckets, and if you struggle with your bucket plans, at some point you need to go to this to get help/salvation.
     
  24. xpletiv
    Joined: Jul 9, 2008
    Posts: 938

    xpletiv
    Member
    from chiburbs

    I agree the headlights need some finessing. It does look a little 'added-on' and distracts from the grill.
    The tail lights are fine just get rid of the reflectors. I like the quads, different is good.
    The pushbar: it's crookedo_O, make it round or something, maybe use 2 horizontal bars?
    :confused:Clean up the wiring a tad.
     
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  25. Ruben Duran
    Joined: Aug 18, 2007
    Posts: 601

    Ruben Duran
    Member

    Using Squablow's pic as a placement reference, I re-did your steering with the straight-through column and steering box above and forward on the frame. Also added his wheel/tire combo just for kicks.

    UNIcruise14019 copy.jpg
     
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  26. GTS225
    Joined: Jul 2, 2006
    Posts: 1,200

    GTS225
    Member

    Oh, yeah.....that's gonna get changed. I didn't really care for it as soon as it was done, but it's there, and I'll leave it long enough to get Iowa to issue me a title.

    Sorry, I didn't think to mention the reflectors. There's some wording in the regs about reflectors, and the "active" lights don't have much for reflective properties. Those were temporarily put there to fulfill what sounded like a requirement. (Gotta jump through the circus dog hoops, ya know.)

    The "pushbar" as everyone seems to want to call it, is a fabricated bumper that I had the pieces cut out for before I learned that a bumper is no longer a requirement. It's plugged into a hitch reciever that has enough play in it that causes the misalignment. I'm thinking on what to do about that.

    Oh, yeah! I have no desire to leave the multi-colored wires hanging out in the breeze like that. They'll get covered nicely with friction tape, and possibly tubing of an appropriate size.

    Bear in mind that these pics are from last weekend, and the first time it's made around-the-block trips under it's own power. As I said in my first post, there's more than a handfull of cleanup and detail work to do.

    Roger
     
  27. FWIW, 71-95 Chevy vans have 2 joints in the column factory to let the shaft bend to just about vertical going in the box. The only issue I see with that deal in a T is the bracing to keep the top of it from moving around.

    Why not put something like '52 Buick lights in the sides of the tailgate? Would look cleaner.
     
  28. clem
    Joined: Dec 20, 2006
    Posts: 3,497

    clem
    Member

    Go back and read and follow post 21 advice on Ackerman principle which is correct and should be listened too. A lot of tidying up to do on tie rod ends steering etc. to make it safe. I Like the front suspension ... if it actually works. Unlike most, I actually like the same size tyres on cars like these.....probably because it looks like an item sourced from what was lying around rather than what looked right or what you wanted. And that's how a lot were/are built. A better tread pattern would improve the overall look though. Rear suspension doesn't do anything for me either.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2014
  29. coast40
    Joined: Mar 22, 2008
    Posts: 100

    coast40
    Member

    There's a few more pics in GTS225' photobucket. http://s134.photobucket.com/user/GTS225/library/?sort=3&page=1
    Make it safe then drive it. Make the style changes when you can.
    I don't know anything about Ackerman, but...
    1. Set steering wheel position when the seat is in place. Wheel needs to be lower, column shorter, steering box higher, correct rod ends, and the upper steering arm on the spindle looks lightweight. Ford rod ends are the standard, and Heim joints work well. Good Heim joints. You should be able to get the steering put in with just one U-joint at most. Possible concerns on steering box position might be the relationship between the box and hairpin pivot, and the angle of the steering rod with the centerline of the hairpin. (Parallel?) Might be a bumpsteer thing? And look at the scrub line. The box seems awfully low. Use grade 8 fasteners.
    2. Everything else is style. Do you have a full set of artillery wheels that fit? That would be cool. Those on it are ok, if they are durable (not toy spare). I don't mind the mud tread, but I'd black out the inner white wall. Roundy cars of the 40's had a variety of treads.
    The headlights are nice, and positioned well. The bracket will probably vibrate terribly. Making an arched bar with mounts on each side like Don's would look nice.
    Front cycle fenders (cont. kit) are nice, but the trailer fenders in pic not so. Fenders can be added later.
    When in doubt, make trombone tubing bumpers with your initial in them!
    The rear pushbar and headlight mount are the things that look more rat roddish than I think you want to have. Easy to change. Touch up the 'glas seam and keep the great paint.
    Make it safe. Drive it. Change the style items as you go.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2014
  30. 48FordFanatic
    Joined: Feb 26, 2011
    Posts: 1,335

    48FordFanatic
    Member
    from Maine

    I disagree .....the tires are ok they just need to be studded !! :p
     

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