Register now to get rid of these ads!

Technical OK lets give this a try Old School brakes for the masses

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by porknbeaner, May 3, 2016.

  1. porknbeaner
    Joined: Sep 12, 2003
    Posts: 41,124

    porknbeaner
    Member

    Lets try this. I am not giving any advice or even posting any pics ( yet). I will start this thread off with a question, but wait for it and keep reading. There is method in my madness.

    A really common question is about what kind of brakes for my traditional rod. So lets make this primarily a thread about what was done or is being done so that the fellas that don't know can learn something.

    If you want to post something but are not sure then say so that way it can be corrected sans drama.

    If you have a question feel free its all about learning here.

    Feel free to give a show and tell how to.

    So like I promised here is question number one:

    When did Lincoln go to self energizing brakes and were they the first?

    Have it fellas and have fun with it.
     
    oj likes this.
  2. I'd say in 1939. Definitely not the first, as Bendix held the initial patent and Henry had to be strong-armed into adopting them. This is very soon after old HF went to hydraulic brakes.
     
  3. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 3,895

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    When did Lincoln go to self energizing brakes - 1939

    were they the first? - No, Oldsmobile had self energizing brakes as early as 1934
     
  4. jcmarz
    Joined: Jan 10, 2010
    Posts: 4,636

    jcmarz
    Member
    from Chino, Ca

    Are you referring to mechanical or hydraulic?? All drum brakes are "self energizing."
     
    jeffd1988 likes this.
    Register now to get rid of these ads!

  5. Bader2
    Joined: May 19, 2014
    Posts: 1,143

    Bader2

    Not all drum brakes are self energizing,Henry's are fixed pin and not self energizing. Bendix are.
     
    big duece and Barn Find like this.
  6. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 3,895

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Yep...
     
  7. X2

    As to Beaner's question, isn't 1939 the answer? Also they were not the first as stated, the design was by Bendix, not Ford.
     
  8. steel rebel
    Joined: Jun 14, 2006
    Posts: 3,604

    steel rebel
    Member Emeritus

    My guess on Lincoln '49. About the time ford put them on its trucks.
     
  9. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 25,646

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Self energizing means that the pressure on the lead shoe pushes against the secondary shoe. That way you get both shoes working together.
    On the 40 Ford style of brakes each shoe pivots off the bottom bolts and the secondary shoe doesn't have it's lead edge applying much pressure
    The older Mopar brakes with two wheel cylinders that were each a half of a cylinder each pushing on a lead edge of the shoe may have worked slightly better than the 40 style but still weren't "self energizing"
     
    Dapostman likes this.
  10. porknbeaner
    Joined: Sep 12, 2003
    Posts: 41,124

    porknbeaner
    Member

    Yep not all drum brakes are self energizing, and all brakes as would apply to our era or eras are fair play as far as discussion.

    Hopefully with enough discussion any and everyone will be able to say, well hey I know where I can find that setup.

    As to the first question I was thinking that '39 was correct, it seemed to me like I remembered using '39 Lincoln backing plates and brakes with Buick drums and may have even eluded to that a while back but then I began to second guess myself and one thing that worries me is that I am going to throw something out thee it be wrong and someone is not going to say, "Nope beaner you missed it."
     
  11. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 43,673

    squirrel
    Member

    time to dig out the old books....

    aw shucks, my books only go back to 1935, and several makes had Bendix self energizing brakes at that time.
     
  12. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,213

    F&J
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    My 32 Nash has self energizing brakes...and they are cable, and they are not two shoes. It's one circular band type shoe.
    I am sure these were used on earlier cars than 1932.

    the brand name is Midland "Steel-Draulics" made by the Midland Steel Co. Many car brands used this brand of brake 20s to mid 30s

    I did swap in a 65 Mustang rear with conventional hyd brakes, and I do plan on splitting the front shoe into two halves, add a cylinder, and have self energizing hyd up front
    DSCN0522.JPG

    I wanted to use the stock Nash wires and also the brake drums because they show. I did use the Nash drums over the Ford drums with spacer adapters, to get the correct 5.5 pattern, and to leave air cooling space between them.
    DSCN0517.JPG
    DSCN0530.JPG
    The spacer/adapter is 1.25" thick, but I wanted to move the rear wheels out a bit, as it looked the wheels were too far in the rear fenders. So I planned all this out when selecting the donor rear end width. Here it is with the Mustang rear installed.
    DSCN0538.JPG
     
    kidcampbell71, moefuzz and Barn Find like this.
  13. V8 Bob
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 2,485

    V8 Bob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Most drum brakes can be classified as servo and non-servo. Brakes with fixed lower anchors are non-servo, like the Ford Lockheed and Chevy Huck., where there can be no interaction between the shoes. Servo brakes, like the Bendix design, allow the primary shoe to move into the secondary, like Mr48chev stated., and these are sometimes referred to as self energizing.
    Lincoln used a Bendix mechanical servo brake from '35 to '38, and maybe earlier, as the oldest Motors manual I have is '35. Starting in '39, all Ford products switched to hydraulic brakes, and Lincoln stayed with the Bendix servo design. This brake design eventually evolved into the "duo-servo", and became standard on all FoMoCo cars/light trucks in '49.
     
  14. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,155

    oj
    Member

    I think the 'self energizing' brakes also rolled into the drum on the backing plate as the brakes were applied. The Ford were fixed and just spread outward pivoting on that bottom bolt. The bendix let the shoes float a little, when applied the entire assembly rotated into the drum and got additional leverage from the friction of the drum to pull them in even further. I think that is why they were called 'self energizing'.
     
    tb33anda3rd likes this.
  15. Road Runner
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 1,244

    Road Runner
    Member

    Earliest self-energizing patents are ...

    Publication number US1678427 A
    https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US1678427.pdf
    Publication date Jul 24, 1928
    Filing date Sep 20, 1924
    Inventors Edwin B Flanigan
    Original Assignee E B Flanigan Inc


    Publication number US1787527 A
    https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US1787527.pdf
    Publication date Jan 6, 1931
    Filing date Mar 29, 1926
    Inventors Louis C Huck
    Original Assignee Huck Axle Corp


    Publication number US1804929 A
    https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US1804929.pdf
    Publication date May 12, 1931
    Filing date Jun 14, 1926
    Inventors Albert Henry Godfrey Girling
    Original Assignee Bendix Brake Co

    Followed by many more ...
    https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts&gws...ng+drum+brakes&newwindow=1&tbm=pts&tbs=sbdo:1


    Before Chevy introduced the self-energizing Bendix brakes in 1952, there were aftermarket upgrades available that replaced the fixed pivot pin on the Huck brakes, allowing them to float.
    I have a set in my 48 Huck brakes and they work really well.
    Saved me a lot of time, labor and funds without the need to convert to Bendix brakes like in my 52 truck.
     
  16. Bader2
    Joined: May 19, 2014
    Posts: 1,143

    Bader2

    Exactly.
     
  17. moefuzz
    Joined: Jul 16, 2005
    Posts: 4,951

    moefuzz
    Member

    .

    Hydraulic Brakes are mostly attributed to Malcolm Lougheed (Later, Lockheed because people couldn't pronounce his name)) according to Patent information.
    However, Fred Duesenberg was using Hydraulic Brakes in his racing cars 5 years prior but he failed to make a patent application hence they (patent rights) are attributed to Lockheed While Duesenberg promptly went broke.
    Irregardless, Duesenberg did use Hydraulic Brakes as early as 1921 and that seems to be the first use in an automobile.



    Conversely, the idea of Disc Brakes originated in the 1880's and were probably first used on Bicycles (penny-farthings), The wheel rim being 'squeezed' by a clamping device.

    We can also thank the Bicycle (and similarly umbrellas) for bringing forward the technology of non rusting steel or Stainless Steel which would eventually see wide spread use in automotive trim in the 1920's.

    It seems that up and into the 1870's, the spokes of a bicycle's wheel would rust and often throw wet rusty contaminates all over the rider.
    A similar problem with umbrella ribs caused rust to drip down on Ladies dresses and hats Thus
    Causing the Queen to Loudly Proclaim,
    "We are not Amused".
    not-amused.jpg






    .
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2016
    '51 Norm likes this.
  18. moefuzz
    Joined: Jul 16, 2005
    Posts: 4,951

    moefuzz
    Member



    OK, that refers to mechanical energizing brakes,

    The first instance of Hydraulic energizing brakes...

    Ed Boughton of London England in which he is the first to apply for a patent to use hydraulic fluids to apply pressure upon self energizing shoes for automotive use.

    Filed in Great Britain June 1927 and in the US in August 1928.

    https://www.google.com/patents/US1721370

    "Thus the improved two shoe servo brake when operated by hydraulic or gas pressure is arranged in such a manner and provided a valve controlled passage leading to a common pressure supply --conduit"

    .
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2016
  19. Road Runner
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 1,244

    Road Runner
    Member

  20. moefuzz
    Joined: Jul 16, 2005
    Posts: 4,951

    moefuzz
    Member

    me neither?







    ?





    .
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2016
  21. porknbeaner
    Joined: Sep 12, 2003
    Posts: 41,124

    porknbeaner
    Member

    OJ I believe that you are absolutely correct here. The idea of the floating shoes and using the drum to help pull them in tighter to the drum is how it works hence the name. It really is remarkable when you think about it, all it took was a fairly simple change in design to make braking possible even for someone who did not have legs like a pro linebacker.

    Interestingly enough that design is still in use to this day. While it may not work well on a heavy vehicle like a car it is simple and effective.

    I actually had a mechanical disc brake on my old bike at one time. Riding a jock shift on a 500+ pound bike on the hills of San Francisco got to be old. A friend had some go fast kart stuff and I robbed a disc and mechanical caliper to make myself a hill holder. Somehow 30 years after the fact the brake and wheel setup ended up at a bike show in KC. The missus noticed it and got into a conversation with the guy that had it . . . Damn it I took my own thread off the rails that has got to be a first for the HAMB o_O:eek::p:oops:

    OK so lets change directions a bit fellas and help the dummies like me out a bit, how can we apply this new technology to our rods. What have *men done in the past to stop their rods and what are you fellas doing along the lines of traditional stopping power. IE what combos of parts are being bolted on and or modified to fit?

    *in the interest of being PC here men is not gender specific. :)
     
  22. aaggie
    Joined: Nov 21, 2009
    Posts: 2,527

    aaggie
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Since Beaner already did it I guess I can't catch too much Hell if I mention another type. In the early 1960s when Honda got involved in GP motorcycle racing their 4,5, and 6 cylinder bikes made so much power that the chassis and brakes were useless. They came up with a massive front brake drum with four leading shoes connected by cross rods to sync the shoes contacting the drum and it was capable of sliding the wheels with very little pressure. Go back and look at the pictures and marvel at what unlimited money and the deepest desire to win at any cost can accomplish.
     
  23. porknbeaner
    Joined: Sep 12, 2003
    Posts: 41,124

    porknbeaner
    Member

    Well as I recall they had some pretty gnarly cooling scoops on them as well, maybe those are limey brakes I am thinking of.

    But we can roll it back around, cooling scoops are for more then looks and are one of the tricks that were done traditionally to drum brakes.

    There are some other tricks that got done that no one ever does anymore for letting the hot gas out of drum brakes. Hot gas is your enemy and causes the ever feared and talked about brake fade. One thing that used to get done was that the shoes got scored, a diamond pattern was most popular as I remember from being around the go fast junkies when I was a little guy. Another thing and one that I don't suggest but it is something that I may be guilty of doing is that the drums got ventilated on the mating surface of the shoes. Please note that while I may do this I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS.

    here is another setup that I see once in a while they usually go pretty cheap and are mechanical but converted to hydraulic these would be a pretty nifty setup. Ford Rocky Mountain brakes are what we always called them and I have seen them go cheap in our class ads.

    [​IMG]
     
  24. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,596

    55willys
    Member

    I have a set of those brake drums. They are 35 and have the wrong offset to be used with hydraulic brakes and that is why they are so inexpensive. With a lot of modifications a mechanical backing plate could be converted to self energizing hydraulic.
     
  25. My familiarity with the term Rocky Mountain Brakes is related to the Model T. Since T's do not really have brakes on the wheels (none in front, a small drum parking brake in the rear, the primary braking is in the transmission), there were aftermarket brake kits that added a drum with an external shoe to the rear wheels. Still operated along with the transmission brake, but it added considerable braking power. Of course mechanical, and being an external shoe that clamped around the outside of the drum was the easy way to implement it.
     
  26. porknbeaner
    Joined: Sep 12, 2003
    Posts: 41,124

    porknbeaner
    Member

    Exactly, they are a wide 5 hub. I may be mistaken but I believe that a wide 5 sprint car wheel will fit and if that is the case you would have the option of cold forged aluminum rims that weigh nearly nothing.
    I may be mistaken about that if so someone should correct me.

    All that said with no hub caps and juiced those would be fantastic on a rod. I personally think that they would be worth the effort.
     
  27. Dapostman
    Joined: Apr 24, 2011
    Posts: 294

    Dapostman
    Member

    My 51 Plymouth had Lockheed brakes with split slave cylinders. The heel of the brake would cam out as the drum rotated and dragged it toward the rotation effectively making both shoes act as primary shoes and be self energizing.
     
  28. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,596

    55willys
    Member

    I have both the 35' 5x5-1/2" and the 36' 5x10-1/4" wide five in the Rocky mountain style with the 5 spoke ventilated face. I have thought about casting the wide five ones with the 37-39 offset and making a place on the back to bolt a disc brake rotor.
     
  29. Clevername
    Joined: Feb 18, 2011
    Posts: 315

    Clevername
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

  30. 3wLarry
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 12,804

    3wLarry
    Member Emeritus
    from Owasso, Ok

    I wish someone like @Dennis Lacy would do an indepth thread on how to rebuild and adjust front and rear 46-48 Ford brakes...with lots of peetures...hint, hint
     
    Moriarity likes this.

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2020 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.