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Non Oil Filtered Motors

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 2935ford, Feb 13, 2014.

  1. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 11,425

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    I don't think I have forgotten the origin of this discussion. I am simply saying, at the outset, and in expanded comments, that running an engine in today's conditions, given all the improvements in peripheral factors, without an oil filter, as compared to operating with a by-pass filter, will have no significant adverse affect on engine life when operated as the OP described.

    Further, I maintain that continuously filtering the the entire oil supply with a full flow system is a superior method of filtration when compared to the by-pass method. Were that not the case, all of the modern automotive, construction and other industrial lubrication and hydraulic systems would not be using full flow method.

    If one could add some inert colored matter to an oil supply and run engines of otherwise identical spec, but for the filter method, I submit it would graphically illustrate how much more quickly and thoroughly the "contaminants" would be removed by the full flow system.

    Unfortunately, I do not have the means to actually run such an exercise and test my belief, So, I am going to have let my comments stand on their own and any interested parties can determine their own conclusions.
     
  2. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 4,975

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This makes a lot of sense to me. Also, where is the additional contamination in the oil coming from that needs to be filtered out immediately? When I was younger, I remember we were constantly running on dirt roads, swallowing clouds of dust from car ahead of us or going the other way. I am sure the '51 Ford I had then ingested a lot of crap just in daily driving. The one I have now may see a short dirt driveway about once every 5 years. It never sees any quantity of airborne particulates (especially in northern Minnesota where I live). I am not an engineer, but I have to believe that the bypass system on my car works as good or better than a full flow system (finer filter size). Plus, the oil gets changed every fall after 1 to 2 thousand miles and looks new.

    Also, please remember that I have one of those fantastic new oil bath air cleaners on it!
     
  3. Flatheads ran without an oil filter. Use a good oil and change it out often, more so if you run in dusty areas and keep driving.
     
  4. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 11,425

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL


    Denny,

    IF you read my very first post, post #2, you will see you are supporting the points I tried to make therein. You are correct, today's operating conditions, more often than not, are MUCH less severe than in bygone days. And THAT fact is the basis of why my reply to the OP's original question was that he would do no harm to his engine if he removed the bypass filter now in place.

    Most of my following posts were made in response to various to claims and contentions made by people other than the OP. And, in most cases, were a diversion from the OP's original question.

    I agree with you, "where is all the new contamination coming from.......?"
    Apparently we both believe it is minimal......so the debate really could center around whether or not a filter is necessary at all...rather than WHICH filter is superior. And, once again, that was the original question. It's a weekend, in a severe winter......we all have too much time on our hands and The HAMB is our haven :D

    Ray
     
  5. USA Tires Sign Joe
    Joined: Aug 13, 2006
    Posts: 1,072

    USA Tires Sign Joe
    Member
    from Western NJ

    Look for a smaller alternative and re-route the plumbing to put it out of sight.
     
  6. finn
    Joined: Jan 25, 2006
    Posts: 675

    finn
    Member

    I guess I'll maintain my contrarian position here. Just because you can run without a filter doesn't mean you should run without a filter. All other things being equal, the engine run with a bypass filter will run longer, with less wear, than the engine run without the filter. I wouldn't put aesthetics or "easy" above function, but maybe that's just who I am.
     
  7. Six-Shooter
    Joined: Jul 12, 2010
    Posts: 341

    Six-Shooter
    Member
    from Ohio

    The '57 Chevy 235 in my T-bucket is non-filtered. I do change the oil (Rotella T 15-40) often and use a magnetic drain plug. The thing keeps on ticking!
     

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  8. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 11,425

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL


    In general, I absolutely agree with you. In the case of the OP's specific circumstances, it seems to me there is no serious risk.

    About 6 or 7 years ago I built a Merc flathead, all new inside, Isky cam, Offy 4 bbl intake....etc. serious $$$. My intended use included frequent/daily use and long highway drives to rod events. The build also included a full flow filter system.
     
  9. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,146

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    Here we get into semantics. With a bypass filter 100% of the oil pumped to the engine is "unfiltered" in the sense that it does not go through a filter on the way to the bearings.

    While 100% of the oil is filtered, because it all goes through the oil filter every 5 minutes or so.

    I still say any filter is better than no filter at all. If I had a full flow I would keep it and if all I had was a bypass or partial flow I would keep that. With no filter any dirt or grit will go through your bearings over and over forever. With a bypass filter it will get filtered out.

    The best system has a full flow filter plus a bypass for fine filtration. Heavy diesel trucks with this system have gone 1,000,000 miles without changing oil and without wearing out the engine.
     
  10. Steves46
    Joined: Sep 23, 2008
    Posts: 397

    Steves46
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Florida

    My 46 has a filter but it wasn't hooked up when I bought it. I change the oil every 1000 miles and she has been doing fine.
     
  11. I ran my flatty for many years with no filter,I always said I was going to add one but never did.

    I did however change the oil religiously every 500 miles,I have changed the oil in motel parking lots on more than one occasion. HRP
     
  12. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 5,708

    anthony myrick
    Member

    I have been following this thread since the beginning. We are finishing up a stude flat 6 at school with the add on bypass oil filter. Going to use it mainly cause it looks cool. When we removed the pan it was obvious, buy the amount of sludge, the previous owner used non detergent oil.But my question, after reading this and some of the many oil threads here, What type of oil would the experts here recommend to be used?
    continue with the non detergent as it was designed for, or use modern detergent oils?
     
  13. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 5,708

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Looks like we have found the answer from the zinc oil thread. looks like most recommend VR-1
     
  14. finn
    Joined: Jan 25, 2006
    Posts: 675

    finn
    Member

    If it is a fresh build, use modern oil.
     
  15. krooser
    Joined: Jul 25, 2004
    Posts: 4,585

    krooser
    Member

    You can break it in with SAE 30 non detergent (has zddp) then it will probably like a 10W30 or even a straight weight oil… try to use SG or SH spec if you can find it.
     
  16. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 4,004

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    Perhaps one could say that in the US industry the full-flow filter succeeded the bypass filter; it's not the impression I get of the European industry c.1950-80, where both options were concurrent viable approaches for a long time. Some manufacturers thought it best to filter all the oil that comes from the pump a bit, and others that it was better to filter all the oil really well eventually. Some thought the possibility of having no oil pressure and a damaged pump due to a blocked filter a real enough problem.

    Eventually it was probably the economics of filter element manufacture that gave the nod to full-flow. As engines approach zero-maintenance (or rather unmaintainable) and sealed-for-life we may well see a return to the bypass approach, with a filter hidden inside the engine being expected to last the life of the engine.
     
  17. 2935ford
    Joined: Jan 6, 2006
    Posts: 3,333

    2935ford
    Member


    The cannister is huge. To try and hide it would be a lot of work, if even possible.
     
  18. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 11,425

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL


    If the sludge in your Studebaker oil pan was like that which I have found in the older engines I have opened up, it was mostly a gray colored paste. I believe that is residual lead from the fuel that the engine operated on for decades.

    The upper engine chambers usually have a black colored mess. I think that is a combination of combustion by-products that escape past the rings and condensate moisture and other residual substances. The degree to which these sludges buildup seems to be, in my opinion, related to the type of use, i.e short trip or longer time/distance, frequency of oil changes and whether non-detergent vs detergent.

    I think the accumulation of sludge, of both types, was reduced with cleaner fuels, more effective crankcase ventilation systems and detergent oils introduced as the years passed.
     
  19. Dan Timberlake
    Joined: Apr 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,260

    Dan Timberlake
    Member

    Here is page from the 1955 Chevy shop manual on oil type, and oil change interval.
    http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/shop/1955/55csm0002.html

    There have long been concerns when contemplating running modern detergent oils in surviving vehicles from the 50s and before that //may// have used ML/non-detergent oils for extended periods.
    The 1942-1947 Chevy manual goes on for a page or 2 about viscosity, with no mention of differing oil quality or grades.
    http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/sh ... csm005.htm

    Around 1950 Chevy started mentioning, and advocating Heavy Duty or MS rated oil.
    http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/sh ... be/0_4.HTM

    The 1951 Studebaker owner's manual recommends only using HD "MS" rated oils.
    (I recall an old Pennzoil or Quaker State add saying effectively "HD" stood for "High Detergent")

    As others said "non detergent" lacks any anti-wear additives. It also contains any anti-oxidation and corrosion fighting additives.
    I'm thinking infrequent and short trip service may need corrosion protection most of all.

    Approximate equivalance of ML-MM-MS oil ratings to modern SA-SM ratings on page 2 here -
    http://www.penriteoil.com.au/FactSheets/Fact Sheet - API Classifications.pdf

    http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/motor_oil_guide_2010_120210.pdf
    API/American Petroleum INstitute says engines built after the 1930s need something more than SA/non detergent
     
  20. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,146

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    Any good brand of 10W30. Pretty much every car maker recommended detergent, multi grade oil as soon as it became available in 1951. If your Stude was made after 1951 it probably used detergent multigrade oil all its life. Unless some goober came along and said "them there old motors all need non detergent 30 oil" and the owner was green enough to believe him.

    Your flathead engine does not need any special oil or zinc additive. It is as easy on the cams as a modern OHC engine. It is the pushrod OHV models that load the cam and need the extra zinc protection.

    PS The only car maker not to recommend multigrade oil in the fifties was Volkswagen. The early multigrades would not stand up to the higher temperature of an air cooled motor. Today's motors run far hotter than a 50's VW, and they make oil that will stand up to very high temps.
     
  21. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 5,708

    anthony myrick
    Member

    thanks for all the answers. Its not a fresh build but a well running motor pulled from a very nice low mile car (1954comander). The motor was supposed to have been "overhauled" some years before but not many miles. The motor ran great with no noises or smoke. We decided to reseal,paint and check before use. I was concerned about the sludge and black coated piston tops, but the answers here make sense, im sure this car was used on short drives.

    thanks again for the response.
     
  22. Mike VV
    Joined: Sep 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,910

    Mike VV
    Member
    from SoCal

    Quote -
    ""A bypass filter will filter 100% of your oil in a few minutes, and has a greater micron filtration ability than a full flow oil filter, don't take my word for it, look it up on your computer.""

    You always believe everything you read...! And "what" greater micron filter are we talking about here ?

    This would be true IF -
    All of the oil were forced a single orifice larger than a freaking pin hole.

    This is NOT fact. Why ?
    Because the oil that does make it to the .045" to .075" diameter restrictor orifice, has to go thru another small passageway to get to the filter. Normally the rocker arm area.

    What about the "majority" of the liquid that passes thru the main and rod bearings that quickly goes back to the oil pan...and is then recirculated back to the oil pump...and back to the main and rod bearings. Then the oil that lubes the cam bearings and back to the pan. Then finally the oil that makes it up to the rocker arms.
    THIS is the smallest amount of liquid that circulates thru the engine before making its way back to the oil pan.
    Even this oil that does make it to the restrictor...as noted, restrictors either in the feed line or in the filter...OR both, severly limits the amount of oil that actually makes its way..."into" the filter because it its small diameter.

    Take a given system that's designed "well" but using a small restrictor...lets say that this system passes 1/2 of all of the crankcase oil thru the filter in 15 minutes. Now another cycle, this system passes another...1/2 of all of the oil thru the filter in another 15 minutes. There's still a lot of oil that has not made it thru the filter, because "some" amount of THAT iol...has already been thru the filter...!. Continue this 1/2, 1/2, 1/2 filtration method. In this "good" method, with filtering but 1/2 of the quantity of oil, there will still be oil that hasn't had the oppertunetly to make it to the filter.

    Take a look at line fed, divorced filtered race engine system... They use no restrictor and use -12 or -14 sized feed lines.
    Yes...these systems filter all of their oil.

    I bought my 259 powered Studebaker Lark some years ago with an unknown milege on a rebuilt engine. It "had" a line fed filter on it. My first of this type filtered engine.
    Once I noticed this combination of parts, I removed the "filter" system.
    I "try" to change the oil in 3000 to 4000 intervals. I've put almost 100,000 miles on this engine.
    With one semi-related exception which has been remedied, the oil pressure remains as constant as the day I bought the car. Read that, no obvious bearing wear from dirty oil.

    Would I remove a full flow filter system....of course not.
    But I also don't believe the .065" (or simillar dia.) diameter restrictor that all systems have will filter all of the oil in a crankcase (5 quarts) in anywhere near 30 minutes.

    Mike

    P.s. - MAYBE....during a constant 8 or 9 hour drive (no engine shutdown), all of the oil "may" have made a trip thru the filter.
     
  23. finn
    Joined: Jan 25, 2006
    Posts: 675

    finn
    Member

    I suggest you study up on your differential equations. When I worked for a Diesel oem (Engine Engineering) my recollection is that the 10% flow through the bypass filter number is pretty close. If you have .065 dia debris in your lube system you have problems a modern full flow filter aren't going to mask.

    The argument here isn't whether a bypass filter system should replace afull flow system, it is whether a bypass system should be removed from a 55 Chevy 265 engine with no provisions for a full flow filter.

    By the way, the results from the study we did on a small Diesel engine with an add on lubrefiner (in addition to a full flow filter) showed that the main benefit was the longer potential drain intervel with the larger oil volume in the system when the bypass system was added. We ran thousands of hours of dyno and field tests on these things with engineering controls and documentation. The finer filtration of the bypass system didn't do anything to improve engine wear, compared to the normal full flow filter alone. Most of the filter load collected in the bypass, and there was alot of it, was spent additive package normally dispersed in the oil.

    i wouldn't add abypass system to a rarely driven hotrod if it already has a full flow filtration system, but I wouldn't recommend removing a bypass system to revert to no filtration unless it was absolutely necessary.

    Even my lawn mower has an oil filter.
     
  24. designs that work
    Joined: Aug 29, 2005
    Posts: 411

    designs that work
    Member

    Golly is this where I add my stupid comment? We all agree that full filtering is the correct way to go, but most of us greybeards have removed partial flow filters and gone to changing the oil more often. Lets look back at the race cars that ran NO OIL or AIR FILTERS and were running on dirt tracks!! It worked from the 1920's thru the late 1960's!! Now race cars run AIR and OIL FILTERS. Point being FILTERED or NON FILTERED work!! The OP asked a simple question, can he remove his partial oil filter?
    Yes he can.
     
  25. 2935ford
    Joined: Jan 6, 2006
    Posts: 3,333

    2935ford
    Member

    This has been most interesting and appears.....there is no one correct answer!

    Seems now to me....a matter of choice.
     
  26. I pulled the by-pass filter off my 235, just change oil every year. Then again I don't drive it more than 500 miles a year.
     
  27. 2935ford
    Joined: Jan 6, 2006
    Posts: 3,333

    2935ford
    Member

    CTFuzz...thanks for the article.
     

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