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Projects New Production 45 Fin Buick Style Aluminum Brake Drums

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by CoolHand, Nov 16, 2013.

  1. Man its hard to keep up with both of these threads.

    Right now I'm trying to figure out if I have the right stuff to use the drums.
    And I was wondering - could a Buick guy take these and put them on his Buick? I'm sure there would be some work involved and understand that these aren't a Buick drum repop
     
  2. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,917

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Yeah, but the customer base is cut in half since they rearranged the boards, so I had to do two to make sure both sets of guys got notified.

    Will they work on a Buick? Short answer: Maybe.

    That's about the best I can do until everything is tied down and I can do a point by point comparison to the originals.

    I'm going to do my damnedest to make them work on Buicks too, but it probably won't be possible without some machine work. I know the hub register hole will have to be opened up to fit on a Buick hub.
     
  3. Well, if they do work on buicks - your market just got bigger. Seems all the damn hot rodders used up all their drums lol
     
  4. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,917

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Heh. :D

    Yeah, that's one of the reasons I wanted to do this project, as it just seemed like such a shame, cause once you steal the brake drums (and hubs) off of one, they get a lot harder to sell, and likely end up scrapped.

    Them old Buicks make cool cruisers, it's a bummer when they get crushed.
     
  5. The reason I say that is because if you need 40 souls you might find some hiding in the Buick crowd. I'm not sure where they all hang out but I'd bet the restoration Buick guys aren't here.
     
  6. Since the drums would have to be about 1/2" deeper than a stock Buick drum to use on the '40 Ford style hub, probably tough to get it fit a Buick too.

    If you went with stock Buick spec's, buyers could use either original Ford or aftermarket outside mount hubs as they do now, and with the right center hole and bolt circle they could fit Buicks too.
     
  7. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,601

    55willys
    Member


    The main question is, the space from the back to the outer ring where the weights usually go on a Buick drum the same as original or did you do the expansion in that area to get the room needed to use a 40 hub?

    I have no problem using your drum and cutting the center out to fit wide5. Wide5 hubs were made 1 piece or 2 piece and the drum can be turned off the 1 piece. The 3/4 ton wide 5 is the same as passenger car.

    Also what are you doing about the different expansion rates of iron and aluminum? Jim (55willys)
     
  8. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,917

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Right now, it's the same. I'm eating up the stretch in the cone shaped area inside that ring.

    How can the car and 3/4 ton truck hubs be the same? The snout on the truck spindle is huge, and the car spindle fits the 40 car hub (which isn't huge).

    What's this about iron and aluminum expanding at different rates? ;) :D
     
  9. Here's a picture I found here a while back with Buick drums on Ford wide 5 hubs.

    I had a picture with similar modified Buick drums on 3/4 truck style aftermarket alum hubs (maybe Frankland); but it seems to have gone missing.

    Anyway, should give you an idea what the other guys are talking about.
     

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  10. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,601

    55willys
    Member


    The brake drum area on the wide 5 is the same. Yes the hubs are different. The expansion difference is why the Buicks had ribs on the outside of the liner.
     
  11. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,917

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    I was joking man, I know aluminum and iron expand and different rates. Give me some credit, will you.
     
  12. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,917

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Yeah, that's probably not going to work on these new drums. My liners are shaped differently than the originals, so you won't be able to cut the center all the way to the outer ring entirely out like that. Maybe you could remove the center out to the wheel stud holes, but even that is iffy. I'd need to know the actual ID they'd want to cut out to say for sure.
     
  13. hilltopgaragede
    Joined: Apr 8, 2010
    Posts: 159

    hilltopgaragede
    Member
    from Delaware

    The computer generated rendering looks great on paper. But, do you have any actual photographs of a prototype both inside and out, fitted to the hub you are suggesting?
     
  14. junk yard kid
    Joined: Nov 11, 2007
    Posts: 2,718

    junk yard kid
    Member

    I really like the idea and would buy some. Before i plunk down my money i would want to see what they look like on a car and how well they perform. I already got another set of new drums to replace the heavily out of balance speedway ones.

    So my question is. Will you balance them? Are you gunna reject ones with to much core shift? Is that even going to be a problem?
     
  15. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,917

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Did you read the first post?

    I don't have any pictures of finished parts. The whole point of this thread is to raise the funds to have the castings made.

    No castings, No finished parts.

    If I had the coin have the pattern made and castings poured to make a prototype to show you, I wouldn't be having this funding drive in the first place. I'd just make the parts and show them off.

    I'm not raising this money just to stick in my pocket. Having patterns machined and a run of castings poured costs a ton of money, which I cannot float out of pocket, and which no bank will loan in this economy.

    If you guys want these kind of products to be available and made in the USA, you're gonna have to put some skin into the game as well.

    Not only does crowd funding make projects possible that otherwise would not be, but it lets the customers become an integral part of the production.

    I'm doing all I can here to make this happen.

    All I'm asking for is a little help getting it off the ground. Failing that, I'd settle for a lot less naysaying and nitpicking.

    I've outlined what I'm trying to do, what parts the drums will work with, and what they will cost.

    I'm not looking for advice (design, engineering, process, business, or otherwise), I'm looking for guys who are willing to get on board and pledge to buy a pair so that I can get the castings made.
     
  16. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,917

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Core shift should not be a problem, but we will be checking them for balance. Those bolt on weights are so damned ugly that if balancing becomes an issue we will find some other method to accomplish it. We won't be bolting weights on the rim.

    They are going to look like the stock Buick drums look now. They're essentially identical in aesthetics externally.

    They will perform like any 12"x2" drum brake would.

    The thing I'm sensing that a lot of guys are not grasping is this: If I don't get 40 guys to buy in, this project will not happen at all. There won't BE a later to buy them, because they'll never be produced at all.

    You can't sit on the fence and wait to see how they look and maybe pick some up later, 'cause there will be no later.

    What you'll see from the fence is nothing happening, and you'll be back to buying old used drums and doing a bunch of machine work on them (until they're all gone, then you're SOL).
     
  17. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 6,326

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    The stock car boys mounted the drum on the inside of the hubs so I beleive the hole in the drum is around 7", maybe less as not sure if they used the stud circle or a deadicated bolt circle for the drums.....Pretty sure that if you can find the thread on Quick Change rears there are some drum pics..I will look later..
     
  18. junk yard kid
    Joined: Nov 11, 2007
    Posts: 2,718

    junk yard kid
    Member

    Oh i grasp it. I just got a property tax bill im hoping my christmas bonus will cover. But if your lincoln door buttons and website are any indication, i think you will do well. I urge others to look at the website.
     
  19. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,917

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Boy, that ain't no shit. Them tax bills is like a little bomb that fits in an envelope. :(

    Seems like any time a man gets just the least little bit ahead there's somebody waiting around the next corner to kick you in the junk and relieve you of your "burden". They're usually from the government.

    Believe me, I understand. If you can't afford it, you can't afford it, regardless of whether you want the parts or not. That's not what I was ranting about. I absolutely understand not being able to afford the things you want, as that's essentially my natural state ( :eek: ).

    I was just trying to impress upon the guys who want to fondle the parts and whatnot before they will commit to buy them, the fact that the parts will never become fondleable (is that a word?) if they don't come down off the fence and help get this first run done.

    Didn't mean to make it seem like I was talking only to you personally. I tend to use the word "you" when I really mean "all of you". Sorry if it seemed like I was coming down on you specifically.
     
  20. hilltopgaragede
    Joined: Apr 8, 2010
    Posts: 159

    hilltopgaragede
    Member
    from Delaware

    Please don’t misunderstand, you have a fantastic idea and the product should sell great! Therefore, we assumed you might be able to show us more, because we are certainly interested in making a purchase.

    Not to nitpick, but the first line of the first post says “We're kicking off our funding drive to start production ……… ”.

    Typically any manufacturing process starts at a minimum with conceptual design, then prototype development, testing, final design, and then production. Since a brake drum is certainly a safety item, testing to see that will work and not fail is certainly important, at the least.

    When people purchase parts, it’s with the expectation that they are proven and can be returned if they don’t work properly. Are you offering this guarantee to everyone that purchases the parts? A money back guarantee negates the need for parts fondling.

    Not at all trying to tell you how to do it, or offering advice. Just checking to see if the parts will work when we receive them and our money will be worth the investment.

    Good luck with your endeavor.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  21. They don't fit into my budget, but I hope you find enough to make them fly. Would be great to see new ones that aren't a billet piece, on the market.
     
  22. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,917

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Well yes, they have to be tested, but again, none of that can be done until the castings have been made. The castings can't be made until the pattern has been machined. None of that can be done until the money has been raised.

    OK, here's the deal. These things are not some cutting edge technological marvel. They are 80 yr old technology that was manufactured and has been in service for 60+yrs.

    That track record obviates the need for a lot of what you'd define as R&D. We already know that the existing design functions and is safe. All that has to be tested is whether or not the end product of our process lives up to those standards (IE did we built it right).

    All my parts come with a guarantee that they will be free of defects in workmanship or you can return them. I really think that's the least a guy can do.

    To this point, I have never had anything returned defective, not in any of the industries I've built parts for (hotrods, paintball markers, firearms, industrial machines, and oval racing cars).

    I've had a single guy try to return a paintball marker frame as "defective", but when it got back here it was obvious that he was a ham fisted fool (we don't use or encourage the use of vise grip pliers, dull drill bits, or any form of adhesive tape in the installation of "bolt-on" products).

    This guy bought a part, mangled it, and then tried to return it as defective. He owned up as soon as challenged on it, but I still refunded his money because he wasn't happy with the purchase (nevermind it was because he mangled the part).

    Nothing will leave my shop that I wouldn't trust my life on. I know what it's like to hit concrete in a race car because parts broke, and I strive to make sure that never happens to anyone else because of me.

    That's it. I need help to have the castings made. Nothing else can happen until the castings are done. Testing will be undertaken to ensure the integrity of what I'm building, but none of it can be done until the castings have been made.

    It is much cheaper to have the whole production run poured at once than to try and have a few prototypes made and then the production run later. I'd estimate that having five or six prototypes done would cost ~85% of what a whole production run would. It's just not cost effective.

    Guys who buy in will get good parts. I will not ship something that I wouldn't run on my own cars. BUT, a no questions asked money back guarantee is difficult to make, because the money will all be gone, spent on having the castings made. So that is the risk, essentially. You have to judge for yourselves if you are willing to risk your $500 investment on the chance that I'm not a complete fool and that I'll deliver a good product as I've said I would.

    I'd say it's a good bet, but then, I'm not an impartial observer, am I? ;)

    The biggest risk, IMO, is that the time line will go longer than I've estimated. May 2014 might turn into June or July (or December) if things go badly for some reason, or if the foundry gets busy unexpectedly, etc. Schedule slip is always the biggest risk. I'm not worried about making good parts that are safe and that satisfy the customer.

    So there it is, the honest unvarnished truth of doing business in niche markets during the great (dep)recession.

    We're a very small outfit, and because of that we cannot do things using the same process that giants like GM do. GM wouldn't blink at having a pattern made to pour a single part for testing, but I just cannot swing that. Hopefully you guys can understand that and look past the process to focus on the results.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  23. I jumped on the Crowd Source Funding bandwagon for a set of drums. I was a bit hesitant as there is a risk that nothing may come of the venture; there is also a risk that not enough folks commit to helping fund the project and a source of new finned brake drums is never brought to market. ...but I think this is a product that should be supported!

    Crowd Source Funding is a rather new and innovative concept for getting new projects started, but it is critical to getting projects such as this going at all. I first heard about crowd source funding from my son, who recently participated in a crowd source funding project and will soon be getting super compact, self contained gps tracking devices that can be easily hidden on his high value construction equipment for theft recovery (and small enough to use to keep track of a key ring!). Participation in a Crowd Source Funding project ensures the funding participant will be able to get a product earlier than otherwise possible, it helps get a special limited interest product into manufacturing, and helps folks with less access to capital get innovative projects to the marketplace. If just barely enough folks committed, it could take a few more years before a second production run is made.

    I will use new drums in my next project (a ’29 A highboy coupe with 392) rather than use some worn and old drums; it is a safety issue. I have been accumulating parts for the build for more than two years now and have the complete Bendix style 12” by 2” front brakes system that will be compatible with directly fitting these new ‘Buick’ drums. I chose the Bendix brakes as a safer alternative compared to the ’40 Ford brakes I am using on my current banger, ’29 Model A cabriolet build. Buick finned front drums have been a traditional favorite for years, but until this project was started, I was resigned to not ever having such drums, due to the difficulty and expense of finding and adapting a very old set of drums to my brake system, and being assured of its safety.

    I do hope enough more folks join the crowd so this product will be produced. I know some of you must want these drums as a Christmas present, even if they will be a little late to put under the tree. Sign on.
     
  24. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,917

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    OK, as an added salve to relieve some people's jittery nerves, I pledge, with my reputation on the HAMB as collateral, that if we don't get to at least $12,000 before the end of the fund raising period, I will refund the money I collect.

    I will either stop the process before it finishes (if that's possible), or return the money to each individual funder if it can't be stopped.

    So, worst case scenario, we miss the $12k level and RocketHub won't let me stop things before you get charged. I refund the money manually by PayPal or check, and the only thing you lose is RocketHub's cut (which is 12% if the project misses its funding goal).

    So the worst case is you lose ~$60, the project crashes and burns, and you guys hate me forever.

    Best case is we make $20k, the project goes off without a hitch, you get a nice new set of 45 fin drums for your trouble, and everything is hugs and puppies.

    Anyway, I promise here and now, in public, that I won't just pocket the money if there isn't enough raised to do even a truncated run. I'm an asshole, but I'm not THAT big of one. ;)
     
  25. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,917

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Bump for the lunch crowd.
     
  26. metalshapes
    Joined: Nov 18, 2002
    Posts: 10,737

    metalshapes
    Tech Editor

    Coolhand and me have been talking about a set for one of my Vintage Road Race Cars.

    Obviously, there isn't a harsher environment for a brake drum than that.

    Based on his reputation here on the HAMB and the Dogfight, and because of the fact that he makes sense and is knowledgeable when you ask more specific questions, I've decided I will place an order.

    ( and possibly a second set for the rear, once I've taken some measurements and figure out what backing plate to use for that )
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013
  27. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,917

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Glad to have you aboard, sir.
     
  28. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,917

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Come on fellows.

    If you want to see these drums available, you've got to get on board soonest.

    I can't do it without you guys.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
  29. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,917

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Bump for Sunday evening.

    Stay warm fellas, winter arrived all the sudden it seems.
     
  30. CoolHand
    Joined: Aug 31, 2007
    Posts: 1,917

    CoolHand
    Alliance Vendor

    Just 36 days to go.

    We need all the help we can get.

    If you're on the fence about this project, please come down and get involved.
     

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