Register now to get rid of these ads!

Technical Need Advice from the Gear Setup Experts; Ring Gear Pattern

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by crazycasey, Apr 6, 2020.

  1. Hey gang!

    I’m tackling my first ring and pinion setup, and finally got to running my first pattern; of course, they don’t come out all pretty and perfect like they do in the manuals, do they? My first impression of these is that the pattern sits high on the tooth, but I’m glad I took these photos because after looking at them a few hundred times, I’m kind of seeing that there is just barely a thin bead of yellow across the top of the gear tooth.

    F6288E5A-99C3-4E64-AFDA-5515ECD475BE.jpeg

    B7F0C472-DE8B-478D-9DC5-F4C182B407C6.jpeg

    Is this pattern what is consider “floating”? Is it good enough? Does pinion height affect backlash the same way that adjusting the carrier does? Thinking that this was maybe a touch high, and a touch towards heel on the drive side and toe on the coast side, I tried to move the ring gear 0.003” closer and ran out of backlash, so this is my best pattern with backlash in spec. Should I try to raise the pinion a couple thousandths?

    Thanks HAMB!
     
  2. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 5,024

    Boneyard51
    Member

    I’ve seen worse!







    Bones
     
    rockable and egads like this.
  3. Stueeee
    Joined: Oct 21, 2015
    Posts: 252

    Stueeee
    Member
    from Kent, UK

    I always try to get the pattern looking about right by adjusting the pinion to center distance (the mesh) before finally worrying to get the backlash in spec. the backlash just reflects the depth of tooth engagement and won't have much effect on the pattern. I would try moving the pinion out a few thousanths on yours and see what the pattern looks like then -the drive and coast/overrun prints don't usually move at the same rate when you make a small change to the mesh setting.
     
    stillrunners likes this.
  4. I had a pinion depth spec on this gear set; Dana doesn’t publish a “spec”, but rather a +/- of “nominal”, which this is set based on the shim pack that came out of the axle (it was obvious that no one had ever been into it). That’s why I went straight to backlash, and then ran my first pattern.

    I appreciate your point about the “drive/coast patterns not changing much when you make small changes to mesh”, but what about backlash? If I raise the pinion a couple thou, will backlash decrease? I ask, because the corresponding change I would have to make to the carrier shim would probably push the drive pattern further to the heel, based on my limited understanding of these concepts. I’m inclined to try it, just for the education, but I’m wondering if it will have any benefit...

    Thanks!
     
    Boneyard51 likes this.

  5. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 5,024

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Man, I hate those Dana’s when it comes to setting them up! What a pain! Back when I did some in the previous century, I honed out a set of new bearings so that they would slip on the carrier easily, so I could adjust the gears. It took me a while, those races are hard!
    That’s why I like the Ford Nine inch, real easy to adjust pattern. Most of the time, you just get “ close” on Dana’s and call it good. But I’ve never had a problem with them making any noise “ close”.
    I did a rear end on an OT rear end built like the Dana’s years ago, that had NO shims any where! Replaced the bearings, ran just fine! Made it another 100,000 miles! Still going.
    Edit: did you check pinion depth, before you removed it?





    Bones
     
  6. No, because I don’t have a pinion depth tool, but everything looked happy. I also made a set of setup bearings, so it’s not too bad. Mostly just hefting the locker in and out that sucks, but I’m getting a work out...
     
    Boneyard51 likes this.
  7. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 5,024

    Boneyard51
    Member

    I hear ya! What I do when I change a set of bearings, or in stall a different carrier, is bolt a piece of steel across the back of the rear end using the cover bolt holes and thread a length of all thread, rounded on one end, through that piece of steel and screw it close to the pinion and lock it down with a lock nut. Then measure the clearance with a feeler gauge. Then when I put it back I have a reference as to the depth! Kind of a redneck depth gauge! Lol, but it works!


    I usually set the drive side as close to right as possible, set my back lash and let the coast fall where it may. I do check to see if it’s in the ballpark.








    Bones
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
    pitman and Hnstray like this.
  8. Stueeee
    Joined: Oct 21, 2015
    Posts: 252

    Stueeee
    Member
    from Kent, UK

    Is it a Dana 44? Pinion center distance is 2.625" IIRC I've done a few of those, and other rear ends where the carrier shims are behind the bearing. Changing the carrier side-to-side shimming is a pain if you can't get the carrier bearings off without damaging them. There's no way you can get a conventional bearing separator (like the one in the top left) in there. I made the tool in the bottom left of this photo for this job; it's always worked so far.

    [​IMG]
    here it is in use, since making it, I've used it on lots of other rear end rebuilds since; British Salisbury 4HA, European Ford Atlas amongst others have the same behind the bearing shim setup.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Stueeee
    Joined: Oct 21, 2015
    Posts: 252

    Stueeee
    Member
    from Kent, UK

    Is it a used ring and pinion? it didn't look like it in the original photos. If it is a used pair of gears, you just want to replicate whatever mesh you had before, any other setting is likely to result in a noisy rear end until the high spots of the "new" mesh get worn away. I use a variation of boneyard51's method to get the pinion center distance, but has exactly the same result when the gap is measured with a stack of gauge blocks or an internal micrometer.
    [​IMG]
     
    Boneyard51 and crazycasey like this.
  10. First of all that pinion needs to go in, to get the pattern towards the toe flank of the tooth, pinion depth is the primary means of pattern adjustment, backlash will move it along the pitch line of the tooth. Set backlash last. Do not worry about the coast side, get the drive side nice and let the coast fall where ever it ends up.

    That being said I wouldn’t be too afraid to run it like that, it’s not terrible that’s for sure.


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
  11. Forgive my green-ness, here, but “Go in” means “in” to the case (add shims to move the pinion towards the ring gear), right? Would you care to weigh in on what kind of move I should make? We talking like one or two thousandths, here, or...?
     
  12. No, new OEM gearset. Dana/Spicer just doesn’t mark their gears like the aftermarket companies do...
     
  13. Yes, move the pinion towards the center of the ring gear, the pattern should move in towards the toe or inside of the ring gear and towards the flank or down into the “valley” of the tooth. You don’t need to go much, maybe 0.005” to start with, set backlash run a pattern, repeat as necessary.


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
  14. Kevin Ardinger
    Joined: Aug 31, 2019
    Posts: 338

    Kevin Ardinger

    I’d move the pinion in .005-.007 to bring the drive side towards the toe of the gear. The coast side should go the opposite and move more to the middle. It’s very close. I don’t like the coast pattern. Drive pattern would be ok but you can’t just move one. All my opinion of course. Like another poster said, polished carrier bearings make it way easier.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    Boneyard51 likes this.
  15. I always loved the Dana 60’ s myself,,,just me I guess ?
    They are more work to set up,,,because they are integral to the housing,,,not a drop out chunk .
    I have never worked on a 44,,,,I assume they adjust the same .

    Just be certain to get the backlash correct,,,not too loose .
    Very strong rear gear,,,,last for a very long time .
    From the advice already given,,,you are in the right direction.
    It should work out great !

    You will be an old pro at this before long,,,no problem at all .

    Tommy
     
    stillrunners likes this.
  16. 57 Fargo, I wanted to follow up. This is 0.005” more shim on the pinion, same shim pack on carrier, backlash within spec (smaller side of the spec, and checked in several places). What do you think? Keep going, or is that as good as it’s going to get?

    D80ADE9A-ABFE-4CD0-AD53-4B16186E8E01.jpeg

    AC4D1641-2B3D-4862-909B-943B376C0294.jpeg
     
  17. I think I'd let it roll, at this point.
     
    Boneyard51 likes this.
  18. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 5,024

    Boneyard51
    Member

    Me too! But I probably would have used the first one! As hard as those thing are to deal with! Lol , but this is better!
     
  19.  
  20. Thanks for the encouragement guys. So, again (or for the first time if I haven’t already said it), this is a Dana 60 axle. Anybody care to offer an opinion on pinion bearing preload? The specs say 10-20 in-lbs for used bearings and 20-40 in-lbs for new bearings, and everything I have read suggests that this should be measured without the seal or carrier installed, though every write up I have seen they actually measured it with everything installed.

    My gear contact patterns were run with 10 in-lbs of continuous rotational resistance on my used bearings (which I made into setup bearings). I have a high-dollar inch pound torque wrench. It feels really tight, and not entirely smooth. I can’t imagine shooting for the middle of the spec (30 in-lbs) on my brand new bearings; I feel like I’ll ruin them.
     
    Boneyard51 likes this.
  21. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 5,024

    Boneyard51
    Member

    I too, always though the preload the book said was a little much! Hell, what does the book know?lol I like the shim method! Never used the crush sleeve, unless I was forced to. ( mainly on 9 inchers). I have seen rear ends with actually play in the pinion go down the road with no problem! Not recommending this, mind you! New bearings will “ wear in” but how much is kind of an opinion. Remember, when you put 350 horsepower through a five to one transmission, that puts a lot more “ force” on the pinion bearings than 40 inch pounds of drag!






    Bones
     
  22. Follow the specs, it will be without anything else installed, unless otherwise mentioned. Remember new bearings will loosen up after they are run. Better to go to the tight end of spec


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
  23. OLDSMAN
    Joined: Jul 20, 2006
    Posts: 2,422

    OLDSMAN
    BANNED

    I would run that just the way it is. It’s not a bad pattern at all. It will be quiet for you.
     
  24. Anybody care to weigh in on this pattern? Another Dana 60 axle, this is the first pattern I have run on this one, with backlash in the middle of the spec, and pinion depth set according to the markings.

    2B7E722F-7AC7-44CD-9759-57F3BDBE2EAF.jpeg

    3FE61E92-6B0C-425C-ADCA-419095BB7050.jpeg

    The pattern is high on the tooth and towards the toe, but if I raise the pinion higher, won’t that also push the pattern even further towards the toe?

    Thanks!
     
  25. Are these new gears or used? You are correct that moving the pinion towards the heel will also move the pattern higher, a toe face pattern, which is what you have, usually says the gear set is no good, there is no way to fix that patterns.


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
  26. Kevin Ardinger
    Joined: Aug 31, 2019
    Posts: 338

    Kevin Ardinger

  27. I think the latest pattern is a different gear set...


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
    warbird1 likes this.
  28. This is a brand new Dana/Spicer gearset. The little guide they give with the gears says that if it’s toe/face on both the drive and coast side that the fix is decreasing backlash, and I CAN tighten it up a couple thou and still be in spec, but it’s only toe/face on the drive side, so I wasn’t sure if that was going to be the correct move...


    Yes, this IS a different gear set (different axle), Kevin. I just got so much good help last time that I figured I’d post here again.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2020
  29. Backlash will move the pattern slightly along the pitch line, so from heel to toe, and it’s very little that it will move it, you need to go a long ways, you can play with backlash but I really don’t think you will get a good pattern out of that gear set.
     
  30. First, thanks for responding. Are you saying that backlash moves the pattern from heel to toe as it decreases? I think I can swap about 0.003” worth of shim from side to side to “increase” the backlash a couple thousandths and still be (barely) in spec, if that will move the pattern in a beneficial direction. I understand that that will be a very small change. I can also raise the pinion a bit if it would be beneficial to move the pattern towards the root, but that may negate the backlash change.

    In your opinion, should I be trying to get “this” pattern as good as I can get it and run it? Or should I be trying to get my money back for the gearset?

    My understanding is that it’s just impossible to get a great pattern on some gear sets, but that that’s just life, and you can probably still have a properly operating axle. Is this one of those situations, or do I have defective parts?
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2020

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.