When I got back from taking a drive in my roadster today, I found a crack in the frame. I've never messed at all with frames before so I need some help here. The car is a '26 T Roadster and it's sitting on a what the original owner told me was a Pete & Jakes T Frame. It's Z'ed front and rear. The crack is located on the front right side of the frame on the "upright" portion of the Z. (See pic below) In examining the frame and comparing it to the left side of the frame. It looks like the original owner notched the frame to clear the cross steering rod. The crack seems to be ajacent to where this cut was made. This area of the frame was reboxed to match everything else. The crack extends around the front of the section and onto the other side of the frame. Front of the car is to the right in these pics. Here's another version of the same pic with yellow lines showing where the existing welds for the Z are and green lines showing where I think the frame was notched. BTW The white lines on the frame are from the reflection of the flash and the black line is some overspray. Any ideas on why the frame cracked? Shoddy workmanship when the frame was notched? Is it even safe to notch the frame like it was done? Should I have any concern about the strength or squareness of the frame? What's the best way to repair this? Can I have someone just weld it up or should I have that section of the frame replaced? Anything else I should know? This is uncharted territory for me and I appreciate your guidance in this area where I'm such a novice. Thanks, Rick
well... it cracked at the stress point... just my opinion (never actually finished my engineering degree), but it dosent look like a strong/safe "Z" for the most part, this is a great post on "Z"'s: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB4&Number=94370&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1 a reputable rod shop, experienced builder, or the likes... should be able to get it into shape, make it safe and strong...
Great Tech-o-matic thread! One question: in Junkyard Dog 32's last post, he says not to weld the ends of the inner angle overlap plates, and indicates welds only on the sides. How come? Thanks, Kinky6
Rick, take it over to JImmy White @ Circle City Hot Rods in Orange, he'll fix you up no problem, I don't think it'll be too involved, but it definitely needs to be looked at as soon as possible..........here's his email [email protected] Good Luck Skip
That is definitely a Stress crack. If you are not going to change the configuration, when it is welded back up it wouldn't be a bad idea to Stress Relieve it with a hammer while its still warm. Welding across a piece of Tubing always creates a lot of stress. I make a lot of Handrails in my line of work, and any time we make them out of Square tubing, the weld that goes across the Flat of the tubing always pulls the Handrail out of Plumb.Like on the Leg/midrail joints. This doesn't really answer your question, but it illustrates the amount of stress involved when you weld across a piece of tubing... Take a short,platform type handrail for example. After welding the midrail in, the legs will pull towards eachother probably 1" each. The way we fix it is to spread the handrail legs after welding until we have them at least 2 1/2" past plumb(1 1/4" for each leg). As we are spreading them, we stop every so often and stress relieve the tubing at the weld.When we finally get it stretched back out, we have done enough stress relieving that it will stay were it needs to be. Like I said, this isn't really something you could do in that configuration. If it was mine, I would jack the car up in front of the Crack so as to put some pre-stress on it. I would "V" the crack out, then weld it back up. Immediately after welding, I would drop it back down off the Jack and proceed to stress relieving it with a Hammer while it was still hot. Hopefully this would take enough stress out to keep it from happening again, but its not a very well designed joint in the first place IMHO.
If you just reweld that spot,it will crack again.Looks like the previous owner is pretty brave,and I doubt that is a P&J frame.I think the whole car needs to be gone over with a fine tooth comb.I'd be real tempted to cut out that whole mess and put in a new piece(s).
Thanks for the info. '55 Ply.. that was a great link to the tech o matic. Luke... Where in Orange is Circle City Hot Rods? How about a phone number? Looked in the phone book but I could't find a listing. They're close by and if he know's his stuff... I'll take it over there. bftwcs... I understand what you're saying but I have no welding expereince and I don't think this would be a good place to learn Thanks everybody. Rick
Rick, the shop is @ Main & Collins, kinda near the Pond, I can't find his number, but if you email him, he'll get back to you, he's a damn good builder, would be my first choice..........
I don't think he was brave so much as ignorant. He certianly doesn't know as much as he thought he did. I've been finding all sorts of things that were not done right. When I was driving it home from buying it, it developed a bad oil leak from the vavle cover. When I took it apart a found that he had glued the gasket to the head and set the VC on top of it. The gasket from the 1st bolt hole to the corner sucked in.
First off... if you can't run a torch, grinder or welder, yeah, take it to someone. It, also, "Is wot it IS"... ...a fucked up spot on a pretty much done car. I'd redo it. Don't mess with that crack, just cut out the vertical, at the old welds, and replace it. Try to get rid of that 90 degree inside corner. You could even think about going to 22.5 degree joints. I don't know how much clearance you need for your drag link, but I'd try for a 45 in that corner, and about a 1/4" to 3/8" strap along the bottom. Maybe for a little added backbone, you could throw a "wedge" on the top inside 90. Plating the sides would be best. You could make some plates to fit "inside" the tubes. After you cut the notch out of the vertical tube, you can slip it all together. Weld the tubes, and you should still have access to the plates, through the notch. Clamp them tight to the inside of the tubes,drill, and plug-weld. Add your bottom strap, and you're done. If you even think about just trying to fix it "as is", grind out the crack and take off all the paint, pull the frame square and weld it up. When you square it, leave it just a bit wider than 90. No way to tell you how much, but when you weld it, the crack will tighten, and the front of the frame will go down...when it cools. MORE, if you start at the ending point of the crack and move to the origin... LESS, if you move the other way. Either way, it'll move. Put the strap on the bottom. These are just a few thoughts. You could take it to 100 different repair shops, and get 100 different jobs done to it. I don't wanna end up having "Final Destination" dreams about this. May the force be with you. JOE
Thanks for the feedback Joe, I can see the need to get away fron the right angle corners. I think that the rear end is done the same way so I'd have to do both ends if I went for the 22.5 corners. If I do that, I might as well pull the whole car apart and rebuild it. Keep the stuff that I like and redo the stuff that isn't right. Rick
Have you looked closely at the other side of the frame? I bet it's cracked there too (or soon will be).
The upright portion of that Z is pretty small. I would beef it up quite a bit (overlap the top and bottom of the z more). I would also put a radius in where the inside angles are now(top and bottom). A smooth radius helps spread stresses out. To break anything, you need tension and a flaw. The underside of the frame is gonna have tension on it because of the application (supported on ends and weight riding in the middle). So you have to minimize the flaws by not having sharp angles. ....plus it looks better.
There is a reason why the Romans used so many curves and circle shapes in thier architechture. I believe that if this area was radiused on both sides, the chance of a crack would be minimal. See my pic below. I would weld in some 1/4 plate, with a circular cutout, in place of the squared off notches. I bet it wouldn't crack again. Just my .02
Until you triangulate the aft end of the step, you can plate and gusset the fracture area until the cows come home, but you will always have a hinge at a critial load area that will continue to destroy all your 'band-aids.' As it stands, there's no resistance in compression. All loads are in extension, and it's asking a great deal more of the gussets than they can provide. But what do I know . . .
Rick, I sent you an e-mail, in case you did not get it, my shop number is 714-532-6640 in case I am not there call 714-814-6674 that is my cell phone number. I would like to talk to you about what we can do to fix your frame. thanks, Jimmy White
That's definetely not anything Pete and Jakes would ever put out. If the seller told you that, he'd prolly lie about the rest of it too. I'd pull the body this winter and measure everything to determine if the frame is worth repairing. Not sayin it isn't but I'd check it before I slid another dime into the frame....
Rocky, The frame may or may not be a P&J but I'm sure that the Z was not P&Js work. I'll be looking at the frame carefully and it looks like I'll be hooking up with Jimmy White and see what he thinks. Rick
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I can see where this was done wrong and you've given me some good ideas on how to best deal with it. I'll keep you posted as to what's going on and keep those ideas flowing. Rick
UPDATE: Jimmy was nice enough to come by my house today to take a look at my frame. We talked for about a 1/2 hour. My options are that I could put a band-aid on it or I could have it fixed right. It ain't gonna be cheap but I'm gonna have him do it right. Basically, he's gonna cut the frame just past the existing Z and fabricate a new frame from that point forward. We're also gonna address some of the problems with the front end. I'm also considering a couple of other ideas such as moving the axle in front of the radiator and picking up a little wheelbase. Maybe six-eight inches or so. I owe Luke/Skip a big thank you for the hookup. The only problem is it's gonna be a month or two before he can get to it so no hot rod until then. Rick
Glad to hear it donnie... I know your reputation and I've seen some of your work. To hear you say good stuff about Jimmy makes me more confident in his work. I was thinking that I've got that 3x2 setup sitting in the garage... as long as the car isn't gonna be drivable for a while, might be the time to put that on it.
Hey Ricky .Look at it this way.... if you lived in New England or anywhere up north,you'd be putting it away for the winter about now anyway...Consider it your "winter project" even if you don't have any winter in So.Cal.
You got some time to put this thing up on stands and check EVERYTHING.Especially steering and brakes.Steering box mount,steering shaft and U-joints,brake pedals,master cylinder mount,spring perches,crossmembers,etc.
Yep... Winter Project... once the fires stop! I do need to go through this thing. I wouldn't mind redoing it from the ground up. It's just time and $$$
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