More HA/GR rules questions

Hi Rocky,
Well I guess I’m going to run headlong into controversy with my donated engine and I’m keenly awaiting a ruling on the 194 cube Chevy.
For those who didn’t notice, I’ve got a Chevy 292 tucked between the rails. Yes I’m aware it pushes the boundaries and makes people nervous. It was free, I’m not up on Chevy 6’s (although I do like slants) and I thought it was a 230 and put it in. Then I researched it after reading this thread. If it had been a Falcon engine donated I’d not be here making this case. I just want to run as inexpensively as possible.
And with all due respect to those who take the HA/GR’s seriously, my car is just a fun car for me and friends to play with. While it’s a well built car, I have no intention to “build performance” into this 292 engine, or any engine for this car, therefore, maybe, we could work out a compromise on performance upgrades to level the controversy. I’d like to race with the HA/GR’s. So rather than classify me an SDRA or “Outlaw”car might I suggest limiting my 292 to 2 x stock 1 bbl carb’s or 1 x 2 bbl carb, with headers.
If the smaller 194 ci Chevy is approved I’ll slip one in and end the conversation.
Failing that you might point me toward a Falcon/Mustang 6 engine, although that will push me back into debuting next year.
If I ever want to get serious, I’d slip one of those 302 GMC’s into the HA/GR (I’ve got friends that run various GMC/Wayne/Fontana, variants in LSR) and they are expensive.
However, that’s unlikely as I’m querying my friends on their interest in coming along to play in C/GD.
Thanks,
Skip Pipes

 

It would be 100% legal if you were racing with the SDRA, no matter what carbs you put on it........
A couple of quotes on the subject from Ryan after they allowed 292s and other later engines in

"I'm afraid this class is no longer relevant to the HAMB"

"I hope you guys do well and have fun, but I think you sdra guys are gonna need to find another forum to gather on. Nothing at all personal, but we try to stick with traditional topics here. "
I guess that spells it out..... however
While I truly believe part of the appeal of building/racing a HA/GR is finding an era specific ancient motor to recreate the birth of drag racing , I can also see the value in building the car and getting it out there for a couple of seasons and enthusing a lot more people.

You will not get to run with NoHotRodsAllowed ,in Socal, so you will either have to run ANRA with Rocky and Dick and co , or street race it .......so it is them you have to convince to run with you.

That will be OK until there is a field of racers with "rules legal" cars and a nationwide competition......or international competition ( don't laugh, it's closer than you think) .


At the end of the day the rules will always be there and someone will want them enforced...that is the day the racers will decide if HA/GR is the game or something similar to SDRA is more to their taste.
I think the biggest issue isn't the actual performance or the dollars or the effort required, it comes down to pushing boundaries.
If the cut off was 64 someone would want 65.......
There have already been challenges on the Auto trans, 4bbl carb,tires,and most cars have roll cages which do not follow the original rules...... and of course there are already a couple of outside the box engines.
The Aussies have had to compromise too, they have dealt with most of the issues......and added some rules .

My question to everybody who wants to push the boundaries is................ Do you really HAVE to win? Is winning, crossing the line first, or is it playing the game...re enacting days gone by, PARTICIPATING...................

as has been said here before you either "get it or you don't "

In think in the end all HA/GR s will comply with the rules, but for now compromises are being made amongst the participants.

 

It's always fun when there is activity on the HA/GR forum.
1. You can run at any NHRA track if the chassis is built to conform to the 9.99 and slower Altered requirements and you have the necessary safety equipment and apparel.
2. ANRA and other nostalgia groups have an "Open Wheel" class or a "Nostalgia Eliminator" class where an NHRA legal chassis HA/GR-type car can run. Probably not win, but can run.
3. Once a builder realizes he might never run at a gathering of HA/GR cars, the need to adhere to the HA/GR requirements lessens and is solely the perview of the builder. I, for instance have put an automatic in my car. First, I am terrrible at shifting. Second, it is quite expensive to put an NHRA acceptable bell housing, flywheel and clutch on a slant compared to running an almost stock 904 automatic. My goal is to run in the 11's and I won't do that with a home made scatter shield, stock flywheel and clutch.
3. The desire to use non-compliant engines, based on how I have read all the posts here, and I am an avid reader of this forum, is based more on what the builder found, got for nothing, had laying around, etc., than a desire to dominate the class.
4. As far as the west coast guys go, I think Dick (old6rodder) addressed the "how to run together" situation well.
5. I am in awe with what the Australian group has accomplished. You guys took the concept developed by Ryan, which was essentially presented as a cool thing to do at MoKan once a year, and turned it into a nationwide, recognized class in your drag racing association. Here, NHRA will never recognize a class with so little impact. The best we can hope for that that regional pockets of enthusiasts will agree on how to run together. SDRA being an excellent example.
6. And now for my parting shot: In my opinion, Ryan's comment about SDRA no longer being relevent to the HAMB is illogical and misguided. The main board is full of FED dragster chatter, all of which is about cars that were concieved after HA/GR style dragsters were invented. There are Alterds, altered wheelbase cars, etc. discussed there and revered, many of which are far from period correct. Nobody gets ripped over there for using a shorty Powerglide.
SDRA cars have a few differences from HA/GR cars, but they have many more similarities. I for one, enjoyed reading about the builds and their racing exploits.
If Ryan wanted them out of here perhaps The Herminator, myself and others are undesireable too.

 

Skip, I say build it with what you have and and join the fun and yes there is a place for your build at Eagle Field. I offered this rely in another thread and insted of retyping I'll cut and paste it. Rocky


I am speaking only as a decision maker for Eagle Field and this reply only applies to Eagle Field. With that said the 3rd generation Chevy six will not be considered a HAMB Dragster powerplant, I'm in an uncomfortable position but the decision had to be made. HAMB "STYLE" Dragsters withe these style engines are welcomed, encouraged, begged, pleaded and wanted to join the fun at Eagle Field but the Eagle Field HA/GR will go to a Rule complying (as I see it) car. Dick Mosely is a good friend and the only car this applies to at the moment, he is welcome to run with us but the HA/GR final round (again at Eagle Field) will not have a 3rd Generation Chevy 6 in it.
Skip has asked me in another thread about his build and I encourage him to build with what he has and come join the fun, the 3rd gen chevy's can run in C/GD (bring your 9" slicks if you like) and then I'm open to a TOP Eliminator award.
The small Ford six has changed very little over the years and "ANY" 144 to 200 will be allowed to participate at Eagle Field in the HA/GR Category, NO 250's! http://classicinlines.com/history.asp Our 170 has a dual bolt pattern and is a '68 with Ford choosing to change the bolt pattern one more time in later years.
I can't speak for ANRA but we are welcomed to run the "Open Wheel" category (although a 12.50 et limit has been talked about) and I'll leave any special HA/GR awards to my friend "OLD6".
I'll finish with these words...........BUILD BABY BUILD Rocky

 

Well Folks. I threatend a while back to trash my POS , And now the day has come.. Rocky, I would have about as much chance in C/GD as a tallow cat running an asbestos rat thru hell in that class.. I always thought that this(HA/GR) was suppost to be a fun class, Nobody looses. BS. I can't believe a 320" Jimmy or a full tilt 235" is "OK" but a lousy 194" is a threat to your racing class..You won't be seeing my car at any of the races anymore.. Have fun., I'm rebuilding my Fiat now anyhow, And will be doing my racing in a much faster class.. Later...Dick Moseley

 

Perhaps these issues come up is because of the militant insistance on only having the one class. Would it really be the end of the world to have a couple classes? If automatics and a few of the other types of engines were "accepted" there would be a lot more cars to compete with. Instead the people with ideas to try to expand the class are quickly drummed out as not being "pure"enough. they're told to go to the SDRA or just discouraged enough not to build anything at all. Perhaps I'm the only one that see's it this way.

 

Since you California guys are half a continent away from Joplin, Mo. and will probably never run at the HAMB Drags, why don't you form your own racing group? That way you could adjust the requirements to meet the needs of your constituency.

Dick (ThingyM) I don't think the competition is concerned about your 194 smokin' 'em. It's simply a matter of it being one year too new, according to the HAMB HA/GR rules. See the paragraph above for a remedy to this problem.

 

To this date there has not been a newer chevy 6, 230 or bigger, or ford six 200 or bigger to run at the SDRA races. But there might be three 320 in or bigger GMC's. Don't forget it's for fun, just work on a personal best, and maybe a flawless run. Joe

 

BobW. That is true. The block was cast Feb 12, 1962 But why is a 200" 1968 Ford "OK' Or a later model slant "OK" But my 120hp 194 is Illegal..Hmmmmm But that to is "OK" with me, I just won't have a gun in the hunt....

 

I'm sorry your upset Dick, your car is not the problem, it is the builders who see your engine as comfirmation that building a large cubic inch 3rd generation chevy 6 HAMB Dragster is OK. And like I said your welcome to run with us but rules are rules and I didn't write 'em. I'm not concerned about our Ford (our engine is a 4 main 170), I'm concerned about others who have built cars (two here locally, the Pontiac Straight 8 and a recently completed 270 GMC) by the rules and now have to consider competing against a considerably more modern and available powerplant.
And again reread my Post and I quote...........
"Dick Mosely is a good friend and the only car this applies to at the moment, he is welcome to run with us but the HA/GR final round (again at Eagle Field) will not have a 3rd Generation Chevy 6 in it." end quote. The post stands and has not been edited. Rocky

 

The Ford 144/170 6 cyl design was available in a 1960 Falcon, Sure the 200 has 7 mains and can be Identified by the Freeze plugs, the later head flows a little better but the engine has no where near the potential of a 194 Chevy. Rocky

 

For whatever it might be worth, I'm a narrow gauge modeler as well. Slim Gauge Guild? I'm impressed. Unfortunately, I spend too many hours at my job and at photography to fully enjoy my other hobbies, but retirement is under two years away. Still might get that HA/GR rail built, but after retirement.

 

This thread has been a hoot for me. My interest is in flathead Ford/Merc V8s and the class originated with that engine, yet few people seem to be interested in building flatheads for the class. It would seem to me that almost any overhead valve engine, regardless of configuration, would have an inherent performance advantage over a flathead, yet if I ever get around to building an HA/GR, it will be flathead powered. The odd thing about all this is that for most years, the winner of the true HA/GR class at the H.A.M.B. Drags has been flathead powered. Go figure.

 

Come on Rocky,, An engine doesn't know what brand it is. It was designed by people to do a certain job, And that is all it knows.. Then along comes some Hot Rodders and commences to do things with it that it never was intended to do. Any motor has the potential to make big HP if given the right parts. Do you think Ford, When designing their Pinto motor thought that at a later date these Hot Rodders would get over 300hp out of them and put them in Midgets, Off road racers etc.. I have one in my Lotus road racer 1600cc & a little over 225hp.. Same with the Jimmy, The flathead Ford, 600hp out of an AMC motor.. You have just as much potential with that 170" or 200" Ford as anyone else does with what ever engine they so choose.. I got my stock 194 from a friend for free. He will get it back if he wants it..The end...

 

Guys:

I know this is off topic but it seems a number of you are into model railroads. My father (who passed away earlier this year) was an areospace engineer but built working [fixed] steam models in his garage shop from rough castings (mainly coming from the UK) and bar stock. I suspect you have heard of "Train Mountain" which is located less than two miles from me. We will be donating some 60 books from Dad's library on model engineering, steam and electric locomotives, and railroad history to Train Mountain for their reference library. If you're interested, check out their web:

trainmountain.com

Russ

 

Jim, don't be impressed. We're just another bunch of yahoos with that particular mania. We're in no hurry and've been at it there for 25 years. Something good was bound to come of it in that much time.

Flattie eights were the most built engine in the period, they're just a bit more expensive now than most of us can manage. Still the best representation of the era going. And yes, the HA/GR front runners as well (seems only appropriate, eh? ).

 

You know, I posted here some time ago that these rules had loop holes big enough to slide a car through sideways. I do not know the person or persons who wrote the rules, but it is clear that while there may have been a vision, there was certainly no imagination whatsoever. The intent of the rules, and the letter of the rules, may be (and most likely are) two different things. When you have this situation, everyone will interperate things differently. When this starts happening, the only constant is the LETTER OF THE RULES, therefore that is what must be followed. For examlpe, the rules clearly state PRE 1962 engines. It doesn't say engines mass produced (over 1000 units) for use in 1961 production automobiles. It says pre 62....before 62. Therefore, any engine designed, and put into actual production before 1962 is a pre 62 engine. The Chevy 194 was IN PRODUCTION in 1961, and installed in many vehicles manufactured in 1961. The fact that these vehicles were released as 1962 models doesn't matter one iota....the rules state pre 62. Furthermore, nowhere in the HA/GR rules does it prohibit over boring, stroking, dry sleeving, etc. I've figured a way (given enough money) to make a 194 Chevy displace right around 270 inches, and be 100 percent legal by the letter of the rules AS THEY ARE WRITTEN. It would hold up in a court of law, I guarantee. Now, I understand completely that the intent of these rules was to keep out the modern, large displacement, superior flowing engines, that would end up dominating the class. Saying pre 62 wasn't the way to do it. Some of you fear this 194 Chevrolet, but seem blissfully ignorant to the fact that the Mopar 225 is the engine that will get you. I could write a set of rules that are bull proof and pig tight, and would allow certain newer engines to compete with no danger of domination. OR, I could write a set of rules to keep them OUT altogether, that would leave no loopholes to argue about. The present rules are a damn joke, in that regard. The two rules that are truely meaningfull, are the ones that equalize everything anyway.....6 inch bias ply street tires, and clutch controled launches. To that I would add open differentials only, and the traction issue will limit huge torque numbers. Where the power comes from would be a moot point. We have proven this time and again on the oval tracks here in the northwest. We would get several clubs with widely varying rules, together for occasional big events. We all used a spec tire, two barrel carbs, a pound per displacement rule,and no wings or aero packages aside from front air dams and six inch spoilers. Everyone was very close, and the racing was fantastic. My greater point is this. This is a very doable thing with a decent set of rules. The present ones are so vague that as soon as one person figures out he has selected an inferior engine, he will cry the blues about the guy who picked a better one. I seem to be the only one hollering BULLSHIT at the technical level. I brought this up before, and was told by more than one racer "Hey don't sweat the small stuff, just build it and come play". Yeah, and now it's becoming something else, isn't it? Somebody better fix the rules while it's still possible. I've watched several circle track classes die a painfull death as a result of just this situation, just as I've watched others multiply like rabbits with a fair, just, and well thought rule book. Just my two cents.....

 

I just looked in my 1963 Motors manual. By god, there wasn't even a ChevyII in 1961. All 1961 Chevrolet 6 cylinder cars had 235 cu in engines. One would be pretty sure that when the rule establishing engine year was established it was based on model year, not when some engineer began designing it or a foundry began casting motor blocks. That in my mind pegs the 194 as a 1962 model year engine.

It doesn't matter if the 194 has a performance advantage or if it would be an absolute slug of an engine. It doesn't meet the rules. That doesn't mean the rules couldn't be changed for and by the Left Coast contingent.

The 225 slant was around before 1962 and remained at the same rated horsepower through 1985. To me, that means there was no performance imrpoving elements added to the basic engine design.

Even though I'm using a slant 6, I believe that it doesn't meet the spirit of the original concept of HA/GR. The design is simply too modern. The automatic transmission I just installed doesn't meet the spirit either.

 

THIS ONLY APPLIES TO EAGLE FIELD PARTICIPANTS
I want to clearify my post without changing it because I'm not backpedaling on it! QUOTE "HAMB "STYLE" Dragsters withe these style engines (3rd generation) are welcomed, encouraged, begged, pleaded and wanted to join the fun at Eagle Field but the Eagle Field HA/GR (insert "AWARD") will go to a Rule complying (as I see it) car. Dick Mosely is a good friend and the only car this applies to at the moment, he is welcome to run with us but the HA/GR final round (again at Eagle Field) will not have a 3rd Generation Chevy 6 in it." ALL cars built in the "Spirit of the Bug", HAMB Style Dragsters are welcome to Come and Race with the HA/GR's at Eagle Field, HOWEVER the Trophy Round will not have a 3rd generation Chevy in it. This still leaves plenty of room for those who just want to come out and "Run for Fun" and allows those who followed the rules to compete for their chance at a prize. The event at Eagle Field is a "Grudge" style format and racers are allowed to come back and race round after round.
The C/GD dragster offer was to Racers with 3rd generation or non-complying engines who may want to compete for a throphy.
QUOTE "Skip has asked me in another thread about his build and I encourage him to build with what he has and come join the fun, the 3rd gen chevy's can run in C/GD (bring your 9" slicks if you like) and then I'm open to a TOP Eliminator award."

It is true the Slant Six can be a killer along with the big early Chevy and GMC six's, but I didn't write the rules and those who have built cars understood the options (me included) when we started. It just isn't fair to those who have built or started builds under the current rules to start allowing newer Chevy six's to race for a "Title". Those who are building with what they have are welcomed at Eagle Field as there is plenty of room to race for fun! I don't think anyone was afraid of Thingy's 194, it's the oppurtunity others see to build a 250 or even a 292 HA/GR. Rocky

 

Big picture, as always. You're probably right. however. We've been having rules debates way before I got involved the last time.

There aren't enough of us to matter. What's the most HA/GR cars (true class legal cars) that have ever been at the same place at the same time? You're racing for a bowling trophy at best. There's no money, no TV, no sponsors banging down our door.

Do what we did, build some shit, have a good time. We're not traveling cross country with a car we have $1500 in. the whole idea of keeping things cheap (ironically) means you attract largely the budget conscious. Those people are not traveling all over the world with a car they built out of the junkyard.

That doesn't mean we're not all VERY proud of our stuff!!! We're all very proud, and we should be!!! How many people EVER, and I mean EVER, completely build a car from scratch and take it to the track? Not many my friend.

And last time we had a big rules debate it came down to Ryan who basically said he was happy with the rules and didn't care if only 3 ever got built (to paraphrase). And at that point, no sense really arguing or debating it.

We built ours, didn't get overly caught up in the rules and are having a good time with the car, out here in the middle of nowhere Montana.

Build a car if it tickles your fancy, but don't get all caught up in the rules crapola. Largely... you'll be ET bracket racing with your friends at your home track. Got some crap? Build a car. post pics of the build, and ignore anybody telling you you're doing it wrong. .

We're building another car out of a Chevrolet Monza drivetrain.... not concerned in the least if it's legal, and we're still calling it an HA/GR car. Bought the car for $250 as a driver. Who would have the gall to complain about a 1500 pound car with an 80hp engine? And why would ya complain? See, easy.

my .02

 

Vector, you're absolutely right. I just get my shorts in a bunch when a set of rules is so vague as to cause one to "interperate" them, then when you explain where there are problems, it seems to fall on deaf ears. But when someone decides they don't like someone elses interpretation, the whinning starts. No matter, I'm going foreward. Oh, and by the way, if someone thinks my engine sucks, wait till they see my TIRES!!! Another wide open rule...lol!
I like your Monza drivetrain idea. Is it the 2.5 Iron Duke, or the Vega engine? I have a complete 1980 Toyota Corolla with the little 1.8 hemi and 5 speed that runs great. I thought about using that, since the head is aluminum, as well as the gearbox. The engine only weighs 284 pounds! I figure if I use the Toyota rear end as well, I could build an 1100 pound car! I may turn some friends loose on that project, while I build my baby (and enormously powerful) Chevy. In any case, that was my last feeble attempt at trying to get the rules tightened up where all doubts are removed. I'll get to my business now. Cheers! Hey, if I come over and race you guys, will you come over here for the Oldies but Goodies race next June? It's a hoot!

 

I am thinkin a front engine 60 corvair engine, vega 4 speed. I will have to reverse the motor so i don't have 4 speed reverse.

 

Give worrying about the rules, and have fun on your own. use what you like and make it look old.

bring your junk over. People love our car. Any douche bag can strip a Nova and put slicks on it. different group of dudes required to make a car from scratch, rules schmooles....

 

True storey. I don't know of anyone here who races a dragster or altered style car, who actualy built the chassis themselves. I've always marched to the beat of my own drum, so will go forward and do what I started. Later on I can always switch powerplants, when the day comes that we have a west coast HA/GR meet and all 150 cars show up. I probably won't live that long, but hey, a guy can dream, right?

 

I Do, I Did, and still Do...My car is certed to 7.50 et...

 

Ditto, but I'm the only thing certifiable.

 

LOL! I meant at my home track, here in Boise. I know you guys, and most all other HA/GR and SDRA guys build your own cars. That's why I like these cars so much...they're honest home grown stuff, and no two are alike. My only concern is the flimsy, seive-like rules. I don't care what the rules are, just make them clear and firm, and tamper proof. Otherwise as more cars are built, there will be more differing opinions on who is legal and who isn't. These are the things hard feelings are made of. I've seen it on the ovals too many times over the years. This is SUPPOSED to be fun.....

 

It has become clear to me after following this board for two years that there would be very little to talk about if everybody understood the rules.

Look at the SCTA and NHRA rulebooks.

They are hundreds of pages long and you still cant figure out what is legal.

I think the real problem is not that people don't understand the rules.

The problem is without firm guidelines there is no way to squirm through loopholes.

No holes...No squirmin'n.

Kinda' aggravates people.

 

Right you are, Butch. The NHRA rules speak volumes but say nothing, because so many rules contradict one another. When you just keep adding rules, pretty soon you're making up new rules just to make the last rule fit with the next. It's counter productive, to say the least. That said, I could add about 50 words to the present HA/GR rules, and remove all doubts concerning the engine rules. The origonal INTENT of the rules would then match the LETTER of the rules. All arguments would cease at that point, concerning what is legal, and what is not, as far as engines go. I've been at this game a long damn time, and clear, easy to understand, and simple, can all fit together, as long as one is articulate. Hoever, from what I'm told, the guy who wrote the rules doesn't care. SO, I see no reason any of the rest of us should.....

 

My take... it's not that he doesn't care... it's that he doesn't give a shit if YOU don't...