methanol/water injection

GM used alcohol/water injection on the Olds Jet Fire in the early 60's. It was an early shot at turbo charging but checking it out might might give some information on their thinking as far as detonation suppression is concerned.

 

I believe they ran that on a 10.25:1 compression engine with turbo boost in addition to that.
There was video thread on that last week- Turbo rocket fluid - or something like that.
Pretty cool set up . Thanks for the memory jog.

 

hey 31vicky call snow perfromance and talk to matt snow he will be help full with anything you need to know i have used his kits on many diesels had out standing results i run one on my ot 12 valve cummins every day and love it

 

Did you get and read the book I linked in my first post yet? It's on page two of the thread, I think. Several chapters on the subject.

 

I was hoping that he would have more to say about the subject as well.
You have certainly sparked my interest in the subject, although I'm not exactly sold on the idea of building an engine around the system. From what I see do far (and may be wrong) there isn't any gain to be had over ruining racing fuel. No more than you would get from fine tuning the engine to begin with. So of thats the case then you should be building an engine to perform it's best using racing fuel then use the system to make usage affordable. I am certainly no skilled mechanic like some of you and may be way off base.

 

Dont think that you are way off base at all. That's pretty much normal way its done.
I just want to do it a little differently if I can. In order to do that I'd need a really good grasp on the theories and concept behind the "why & how" it works. Yes its works as detonation control on an engine built for racing fuel. But what else can it do ? It lowers nitrogen oxide NOx emissions, it cleans the combustion chambers, it can let performance go up while fuel cost goes down ( race vs LESS pump fuel ) , it can increase fuel economy greatly with a small drop in performance.

Fuel economy with small drop in performance was noted in that '66 EPA test.This was on a bone stock 283,- When the turned the water injection up to 58% vs gasoline 42% by weight the power dropped 30% . Less than 1/2 the fuel usage with a 30% drop in power. But here's the kicker - the hydrocarbons out of the tail pipe were WAY WAY too high. To me that sounds like it was getting too much fuel or having trouble combusting it. Just Think on that for a few moments . Would you accept a 30% drop in power for 58% fuel savings ? Probably depends on how much power you had to start with and if you could switch it back to full power right?

No secret that compression increases power , but the government doesn't like the NOx caused from high compression cylinder heat. So the easiest way to eliminate NOx is to drop the heat, manufacturing said easiest way to drop heat is not make any in the first place , easiest way to do that is lower compression. Enter smog era and all the crap they tried to get performance & economy out of a low compression lump. Cars got really good milage before that, but the down side was NOx. Also no secret that meth/water drops the heat and NOx ; maybe you get an increase in power too, maybe you don't and that depends on the starting point or engine design. EPA and manufacturing didn't think public was capable of maintenance on water levels.

 

And now electronic engine management and head designs allows 12-1 compression using 91 octane fuel.

 

Mr Vizard was kind enough to email me back today after my asking about the downside of this system. Here was his response:

There can be some downsides to W/I.One that I have come across is steam erosion. It seems if the water droplets are too large during the combustion process they can partially flash to steam at such a rate as to erode aluminum. I have seen heads with almost an 1/8 inch eroded from the quench pad of the chambers.


There is a company in the UK that has an electronic micro-mist system that most of the world rally cars used at one time. This produced a spray of water with droplet sizes around 10 microns. Can't remember the company name but a google search should reveal such. The guy there impressed me with his knowledge so he might be a good source of info here.
Hope that helps.
DV

 

Yes they do
A real active knock sensor and lots of timing retard, and fuel mapping make it possible.
I have a Real good grasp on that.

So let's take this OT engine and reduce the knock or increase knock/detonation resistance.
If the ECM quit backing the timing down it will run better and stronger
If the ECM quit dumping fuel to cool it off because it quit knocking it will get better mileage.

So they still haven't got it to its full potential, but its a far cry from the anemic excuses that were out there.

My DD has a 5.3 with 9.5:1 compression ratio. Also flex fuel so it runs on E85 too. It runs nice on 87 octane for 90% of the daily driving I do. If I ask a bit more of it, it backs the timing down dumps fuel and rattles still and power goes way way down. 91 fixes some and 93 fixes all of it on the hard WOT side but drops on the easy end. But on E85 it runs like a scalded dog better than 93 and never cuts timing no matter how hard I push it. Problem is it uses 30% more per mile and E85 final costs +/-5-10% more to run it. Same engine, same ECM big difference in performance.

 

I build old British cycles,mainly Triumphs.To control detonation and head temperature a richer fuel mixture than necessary is used at full throttle.This "charge cooling" works to a point,a rich mixture reduces power obviously.
These classic Hemi head bike engines have very little quench to stir things up.For an SBC there are many wedge heads out there allowing higher compression ratios without detonation.
You know all this and more,just saying......

 

Compression increases more than just power. It increases part throttle fuel economy, and manifold vacuum at idle. The ONLY downside, assuming you can get the compression while maintaining an efficient chamber shape, is octane requirement. I WILL try to take some time out and find a couple articles on water/alchohol injection to post, I promise. Its just that between having a 4 yr old, being partners in my wifes business, and working a full-time day job, its hard for me to find free time these days.

 

Yea yea yea

 

This link is where it all started for me and I must say that water/methanol injection is the single greatest modification for hi performance street use that I've ever encountered. Check the link ...I'm certain that you'll find everything and more that you've ever wanted to know about this subject.


http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

 

Wow fantastic site my friend thanks !
Lots of good info there and a fun read.
Saw this and had to laugh


Some people want to use water injection with non-boosted, normally aspirated engines. High desert heat, high compression etc. This is not an area we are going to do development in. If you choose to do so then we can supply one or two vacuum operated switches to control the activation, staged or single. You are on your own in this regard. .... The engineering, nozzle, sizes and strategy is up to you....You can even rig something up to spray you if you so choose. We're turbocharger specialists. You get to be the other specialist whatever that is.

 

water injection can help replace an intercooler and its problem of causing some lag in response time due to all the plumbing and the air/fuel mix having to run around the engine compartment until it gets to the intake.

It can work if you get the mixture right (and don't try to use a windshield washer sprayer system cobbled together ), but keep in mind it will displace space in the combustion chamber normally reserved for things that burn and make power...tho the oxygen in the water does help, it still needs gas to burn or it'll use the metal to burn instead, like N2O does to valves and piston tops. the better your ports flow, the more air/fuel was getting in there in the first place, so you may get a safe margin to work in.

also, the water, like fuel, is heavier than air, so it will separate depending upon where you inject it in the port and how convoluted the flow of all that fluid is inside the engine.

 

I should also point out the obvious: GM had windshield washer fluid installed in its turbo models of the buick and oldsmobiles of 1962. If they felt comfortable with "rocket fluid" (as they labelled it) and carburated aluminum V8's...there's probably something to the science. they wouldn't want the warantee costs.

 

Saab had in the 80's a waterinjection in their cars.
http://saabworld.net/f70/turbo-s-water-injection-installation-instructions-sept-88-a-1341/

 

I'm using water/methanol injection in a boosted street application, but the same benefits may be reallized with a naturally aspirated engine as well. Those benefits are primarilly heat absorption and very high octane fuel on demand, both of which fight detonation. My daily driver is an Eagle Talon with a turbocharged 120 CID 4 cyclinder which is has been producing 440 horsepower for more than 35K miles with absolutely no damaging issues. Car weighs 3370 pounds with me in it and runs 12.40s at the dragstrip with the very same fuel and timing maps that I use in the winter time on the street with steel wheels and snow tires and I honestly owe it all to water methanol injection. This has allowed me to run an addition 20 degrees timing on cheap low octane pump gas and since the water/methanol is only injected into the intake tract under boost or in your case load.

The total percentage of water/methanol in your fuel should be between 10% to 15% during WOT and your ideal Air Fuel Ratio will be about 1 point lower than straight gasoline in the range of 11 to 11.5:1 with the lower number being safer. I highly suggest that you install a wideband O2 sensor gauge in your car at least for initial tuning. My water/methanol source of choice here in Wisconsin is -20 windshield washer fluid mixed 1 gallon with 2 small containers of HEAT in the yellow bottle for an accurate 50/50 water methanol mix. And an interesting note ...your engine will now be steam cleaned internally every time you mash the throttle down. My driver has 125K miles on it and the tops of the pistons are shiny clean aluminum every time I change the plugs.

 

Friday night bench racing ?

 

You might be talking about Aquamist. When I was researching my setup I got the impression they are one of the best and most knowledgeable. I just popped on to get their web address and noticed their forum seems to have plenty of interesting discussions about this subject:
company products: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/cp1.html
forum: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/

 

Friday bump

 

reading old post on another forum and found this link, some may find it useful.

http://www.enginehistory.org/Convention/2005/Presentations/LawPete/ADI.pdf

 

My newest acquisition for my mid 40's custom build 1941 Plymouth business coupe. It's a NOS Octa-Gane Water/Alcohol Injection system. It is complete and really cool. Not sure on claims but I will report back when I get it all hooked up.






Just thought I would share.


BloodyKnuckles

 

Man that's cool !!!!!

 

I figured that you would appreciate it.



BloodyKnuckles

 

Airplanes; The correct terminology for the mixture was "Anti Detonation Injection" fluid (ADI) which was a mix of 51% demineralized water and 51% FISH OIL. It's purpose was to suppress detonation during hard acceleration on supercharged engines. What "metal" said,....it's nothing new.

From time to time, some people touted it as "The secret to high power output" from aircraft engines.

4TTRUK

 

This may have gotten lost in the confusion a few pages back.
But anyone whose really interested in water injection should take some time and pick thru this study. Look at the findings and make your own conclusions- then look at the published conclusions.

 

Yeah I do & its traditional too.
I'd love to spend some time with it