Ok so I have never sprayed Metalic lacquer, any tips behind spraying it? On the same note what do the old painters here do as far as steps for a great lacquer paint job?
Steps for a great lacquer job, prepare and prepare some more, make sure that everything is as clean as possible. Lots of thin wet coats, and rub every third one. Metalic you have to be real careful you donot want to rub through the top coat but you do want to smooth it before the next 3 coats. Make sure that your paint is mixed to the max, then put a nut in your cup on your spray gun, and shake your spray gun every little bit to keep the metalic well distributed in the cup. Take every precaution to spray as even a coat as you possibly can, uneven metalic paint looks really bad. it is a little harder to spray than a solid color because of that and it does not hurt to waste a little paint on a test panel. All lacquer is mildly translucent so make sure that every coat is as even as possible, it will show through thr next coat when the light hits it right. Ok now that you are good and scared, you can do it it is not as bad as it sounds. Oh I just noticed your location. I live near you. Actually I spent my youth raisin' hell and puttin' a brick under it. Hey how much and what color do ya got? Maybe you should send it to me and get a maaco job instead.
Whether lacquer or enamel, single stage metallic paint is a lot more durable when finished with a layer of clear. With non-metallic colors the benefit of clear is relatively minimal.
Good points. Whenever I shot metallics. I thinned down the last coat quite a bit and "blasted" the final coat at higher pressure and gun speed. It will even out the metallic and eliminate zebra stripes and dark areas. There's no real trick to it, just add more thinner and hit it hard and fast
Carl I new an old guy when I was a young guy that shot lacquer @ 70+ PSI. He said it was the olny way to get a decent lacquer job metalic or otherwise. I never learned to hit it that hard myself but he was a painter and I am a mechanic that shoots paint because painters are hard to get along with.
wilst painting (multi-coats) some have used a % of... base color 100% then base color with 25% clear then base color with 50% clear you get the idea until its 100% clear.... and it just doesn't look right till ya buff/rub it out... kinda frostie on the roll then rub/buff clear seen it and have also done it.....
Adding clear to the paint will effect how the the metallic looks, and in some cases may alter the color. The idea of finishing with clear is to protect the metallic, which is aluminum particles, from the effect of weathering. If there is metallic in the final layer that can't happen.
Get some more opinions on clear. The former AACA classic showcars would get a nick, and the shop could blend in a small area, rather than repainting the whole fender. I don't think clear would allow that to be possible. I never had good luck with AL decades ago as a backyarder. I think I was using too much thinner. I just started using it on my 32, but only the dash so far. My car has old chrome, and old aluminum parts on the engine, so I did not want a paint that looked one day old I used less thinner than I used to, and after a few days, I hand rubbed the dash with Soft Scrub tub cleaner with a rag. It looks exactly like an older paintjob; not too shiney, and does not make the old chrome look worse. I have not rubbed the white part yet. I like using AL topcoat as well as AL primers. The modern paints now make me very ill, and I can't use them.
The thing with lacquer is the thinner and the drying time/temp. You will probably reduce about 125% or more in order to spray smooth because lacquer doesn't flow very much. You can use retarder but that creates a different problem. Lacquer thinner is a very volatile material and when you spray it over your primer or over previous topcoats it will swell the sanding marks. Therefore you will have to let it air dry for a couple of weeks or more before you cut and rub. I didn't use clear over my lacquer because we didn't have any real durable clear when I was still painting. The problem was sun cracking of the clear. But now days there are some very durable clear products that can be put over lacquer. If you don't use clear, be careful that you don't sand and rub too deep or it will show rings between the coats in the sun. That isn't a problem with solid colors like black. Because of the drying time being so fast you will probably want to paint the vehicle in sections in order to reduce overspray cause orange peel. Be careful where you break your sections or you may end up with a two tone paint job because of the metallic distribution being more or less silver. Dave.
Highlander posted an excellent tip about setting aside some paint and letting the metallic settle out, then using it of the last couple coats. I filed that one away for future reference.
Hey, What brand of lacquer and thinner are you shooting? Finding good, well balanced thinner will be almost as hard as finding lacquer paint these days Lacquer doesn't suffer its' fools charitably, and won't put up with shoddy paint prep! If you lay on heavy coats, or shoot over sand scratches, trying to bury them in material, those scratches will probably swell, and you'll have to start over after sanding off the previous coats I usually shot lacquer @ 150 % @ 45# at the gun. A sealer was always good insurance against swelling from the lacquer based primer surfacers when sanded with 400 W&D. The first of 5 or 6 coats was shot with up to an hour between coats ( the finger tack number used for enamel or urethane wont serve you well,here), it's about flash time, not surface tackyness. You wanna make damn sure you're not trapping wet thinner benieth coats of paint! Yeah, shooting a job could take most of the day, but loading on wet coats to save time ain't never a good idea Once the last of these coats was shot, I'd try and let the job sit and out gas for days, sometimes up to a month, depending on the colour, and $$$ involved in the job When I could no longer smell thinner comming outa the finish, and when dry sanding with 400 wouldn't clog the paper, I'd reblock the job with 400 and a Balsa '' idiot stick " until no peel could be seen on any of the panels. Another 4-5 coats were shot, again with large flash times between, with the last two coats usually knocked up with retarder and/or 175 % thinner. I wouldn't add clear to my lacquer jobs as the clear that was around 30-40 years ago wasn't very durably and would '' yellow'' or crack if used like guys use today's urethane clears. Unless your metalic is a heavy aluminum flake like the oem colours of the 70s, a drop coat should be all you'll need to unify the pattern providing your using good triggering techniques on your final coats. My gun of choice for lacquer- a Binks 62 Model with a blown out 36 SD tip '' Do not reach greedily for the Kool-Aid "
maybe I missed it but check with your paint supplier, and make sure you don't need a special "flecking" agent some of the older large fleck lacquers require it to keep it from laying the fleck out flat (makes crackled chrome appearance ) the flecking agent keeps the fleck in suspension and on edge (think millions of microscopic mirrors) you want them to set on an angle in the paint to sparkle (play with a pocket mirror in the sun as a kid? ) good luck , B.T.W Love that lic. plate in your av.
A couple thoughts added here...though Pimpin is usually right on, in his directions. If using today's catalyzed, or epoxy primer, the shrinking problem that lacquer had is minimized, cause you're not using lacquer primer! Using catalyzed glazing putty helps, too.. I did a nitro black job on a 53 Merc many years ago, and it really didn't give me any problems with shrinking over a HOK epoxy base. I was surprised. Don't believe the bull about sanding every coat. Lacquer is so thin you;'d remove it all if sanding every coat! Again, due to shrinkage, in the old days, you usually put on 5-10 coats, let dry well (more than a week) and then another 5-10 coats. You could do this 3-4 times before finishing. Be sure you get the right thinner for your temperature application!!!! DO NOT spray it in damp, humid weather! You'll bet "blushing", or a milky appearence in the paint. The only way around that was to use a retarder, but that lengthened dry time, increased shrinkage, just another set of problems. Better to wait. I am of the group that used to mix color with clear for the last 5 coats or so, when doing a metallic color. Increaded depth of the paint, made it easier to sand and buff,but didn't look over-cleared like today's paints. These were for "weekend" cars anyway, so longevity was not a primary issue. Yes, the clears back then were prone to yellowing and cracking over time, much quicker than just the paint. You'll be surprised how easy it is to cut and buff lacquer, compared to today's paints. Back in the day, a few hours with some 600 grit, wet, and some white compound, and some Liquid Ebony, or Meguire's Mirror Glaze, and it was a show finish! Maybe a day, or day and a half work! But be careful, it is thin and will burn and edges will get cut to bare much faster thatn today's paints!
Laquer has to be rubbed out . Cut and buff. You have to clear metalics or you will rub layers of metalic off and end up with a FKN splotch job. I loved doing laquer jobs for years. It is really easy so don't be afraid. Eff Ups are easy to fix. Gerry
Hey, Most of the '' factory packaged '' mixed lacquers contained extra clear, already mixed in, even HOK! The store or bench mixes usually didn't have extra clear, and sometimes required additional before you shot them. Again, I never was a big fan of just clear, without colour added, as those jobs usually resulted in come-backs, six months to a year up the road Almost as important as shooting a lacquer job was the after care/maintenance of one! NEVER,NEVER allow a lacquer job to go without a good coat of wax to seal it from oxygen and chemmies. I always liked the full carnubas like " Harley '' paste, never the momma's boy soft shit sold today as "wax ". Yeah, this sounds like ''flat earth'' shit, but the pastes always held up better, and to me , had more depth. Lacquer doesn't like temp changes, and freezing, rain & full sun for extended periods are all to be avoided. Lacquer is alot like a high maintenance woman, she won't take much b.s. off ya, but when ya catch her in just the right light, oh baby! That's something ya won't get from those cheesy fuckin melamine/urethane resin based, overcleared ''street rod'' finishes so over used on " kustoms'' today " The ice cream truck in his neighborhood plays Helter-Skelter "
I've painted ony a few cars, all with lacquer except one in enamel - never again on the enamel. I am strictly amateur, but will offer a couple of comments. 1. A lousy painter like me, with a cheapass gun, likes lacquer because it is forgiving to mistakes. Got a run? Wait 20-30 minutes, sand it out, and shoot it again. 2. If you get some orange peel, lacquer sands out super easy. 3. Don't like making a mess in your shop? Lacquer dries so fast that what overspray ends up on the floor mostly doesn't stick. Just sweep it up. 4. I had one car (1930 Willys manydoor sedan) that I originally shot in two shades of metaillic brown, no clear. A few years later, tore it down, repainted same color, but did do a clear topcoat. BIG difference! Clear made it "pop" much better. 5. On another project, I found that small changes in the gun pressure made a difference in the flipflop of the metallic. I was repairing a fender, and by fiddling with the pressure, I was able to tweak the color to a perfect match, Surprised myself. 6. Catalyzed paints, you gotta use what you mix. Cheapass that I am, and so slow that I tend to work on one piece (like a fender) at a time, I'm afraid I'd waste a lot of urethane. Thinned lacquer can go back in the can and stored for a long time. 7. I love the smell of lacquer - even better than fiberglass or bondo.
Tips on spraying metallic lacquer..it works well, ya'll.. https://49fordcoupe.smugmug.com/Painting-the-Car/
What you want will depend on the color. Light metallics, silvers, silver/blues and greens, light charcoal, etc, you can mix clear in the last coats and get a nice finish and even pattern. Dark metallic colors, deep blues, maroons, dark greens, if you mix clear in those it will "rinse" the color off the metallic particles and just look off. You'll get a look of contamination and bright silver bits over the color you wanted. My way is intense but worth every hour. Cover the car with color. If you're using an HVLP gun you need to be aware of the transfer efficiency. It's easy to pile on too much and create some of the old problems like solvent pop and substrate swelling. About 7-8 'normal' HVLP coats will apply a decent film build to get you set for the next step. That next step, and this is a commitment, sand the whole car with a minimum of 1000 grit wet paper. The idea is to level the metallic pattern. Within the 1st few strokes of the paper you'll see exactly what I mean and why. Don't worry about crossing layers or a dodgy looking color, you want it level. Of course with a super good cleaning and drying of all the water/paint mess and such you're ready for the next step. Again, color dependent, you want to reduce the next 2 layers of color with an additional 25 to 50%, less for dark colors, more for light colors like silver and such. Set your pattern as wide as it will go without stripes happening (set up a paper or such to get the gun right. You want to also lower the pressure and volume a bit. Yes,.lower the pressure and volume, pressure down about 5-10 PSI, volume by feel, or enough to create the slightest shine. You want a smooth light shower of color applied in a random pattern. Don't worry if it looks off a little, you have to trust what you're doing and you'll see it happening. Apply just 2 layers to even out the pattern and you'll have a color that actually sparkles like you see in the can, not the usual texture like OEM finishes have. Now you're ready for clear. Get 1-3 easy coats of clear on it before you go for finish, and you only want about 6-8 coats, again using an HVLP or gravity feed gun. Old siphon guns waste so much material the number of coats, or trips around the car, is almost twice what a new gun does. For lacquer thinner that stays wet enough for good finishing and proper purge time (wet long enough to let solvents escape) I like PPG DTL 876. DuPont used to have lacquer retarder but I don't shoot DuPont so I don't know if it's still around. Give that final clear coating a good 3-5 days dry time, "open it up" with a 1st sanding of like 1000, or even 1200 if you laid it down smooth. You'll smell it even through your soapy water, but be aware that if it's too smelly then the runoff water will leave a stain or solvent burn in the finish so start at the top and work down. After that leave it alone for another week and maybe set a fan up near the car as moving air will purge it well and complete. You have to try this and I truly believe what I've put here will make good sense as you progress. Your final finish will be a rewarding experience and worth every hour. Quality materials are the key to consistent performance while spraying and also longevity. Lower priced materials are solvent heavy and usually contain a lesser amount of the stuff that resists UV damage. Enjoy the job is the last best advice I can give you, and keep doing what you're doing now...ask
Hey, Highlander, I really appreciate your thorough analysis of how to get a good paint job. But I think I'll have to take a couple of issues about what you wrote, not to be argumentative, but just to point out "personal preferences". This part could be wrong on my part, but follows "logic". Why would any "color" be any different from one color to the other in mixing clear in final coats? I might be able to understand that different manufacturers and formulas may act different under different circumstances, but the "color" should not make any difference. Solvent pop and substrate swelling is due to "too much, too soon" and high temperatures causing surface drying and trapping solvents on prior coats. Each manufacturer's data sheet will recommend time between coats for adequate flashing while still giving good adhesion of following coats. 7 or 8 coats of color? Perhaps vendors who furnish translucent/transparent color coats are more affected by multiple coats, but some are pretty much opaque. There is no set rule about how many coats to apply. In my case, the present project paint job is pretty much opaque in the color layers. When a coating is opaque, 3 coats should be plenty. Painting any more coats than that is a waste time, effort, and money. For lacquers, NO sanding is required after color is complete, and in fact, will damage the metal flakes/pearls and dull the "look". Proper application, according the the data sheets I've read for lacquers, indicate no sanding between coats at all. Clear goes down right over the color and the THREE (minimum) coats of clear gives you plenty of thickness to level the surface without damaging the final color coat. For Lacquer, 24 hours is plenty time to cure out before sanding, not a week. Ok so I'm a newbie, but the painting I've done so far (with a $16 paint gun) is coming out EXCELLENT and far beyond my expectations painting with Restoration Shop Firethorn Red Pearl, performed according to the manufacturer's data sheet. That's why they furnish the data sheet. Check out my "painting the car" gallery on my web page if ya don't believe me.
There's a lot going on in your reply, also a lot that makes assumptions about the material and it's characteristics. I put some of your reply in bold to try and answer in some form of order, and as well, for anyone else reading this, it may shed some light on how lacquers can either work or fail. Why any color would be different is directly related to METALLIC LACQUER COLORS. Again, a light "misty" or maybe "frosty" color like silver, silver/blues (some early GMs like 'Jewel Blue'), or minty greens are very heavy metallic, or even more simple, lots of aluminum powder in them. Adding clear or additional solvent doesn't have too much of an effect on colors like that but the hard fast rule is excess solvent will make the color lighter. The tints and toners that make the color get a bit washed out, the end result is lighter or brighter, and clear will do the same thing. Dark metallic colors (Pontiac "Nightwatch Blue", any number of dark maroons, and GM "Forest Green" are great examples) are made with transparent toners and aluminum powders of different sizes or grades. Remove the color component and you have silver dust. Reduce that color component with clears (properly reduced) or excess solvent use the color component is more transparent, the transparency will essentially wash the color away and in some cases expose silver specs that look more like dirt or surface contamination, not a smooth and opalescent metallic effect. You're partially correct in mentioning solvent pop and swelling, excess film build being the main offense to cause it. Reading what I posted, HVLP and gravity feed spray guns have superior TRANSFER EFFICIENCY. Simply put, more goes on the surface, less in the air. Were one to just take off and go 'old school' and apply 16-20 coats of lacquer to ready for that ultimate cut and buff, an HVLP would end up transferring TOO MUCH MATERIAL, which could then cause the old fashioned ills associated with lacquers. There are set rules as to how much material needs to be applied, those rules directly related to solvent ratios, film build, purge times and lastly personal preference. A solid bright red (Ford "Vermillion" for example, maybe Vette "Torch Red" too) Should require at least 8 full wet coats, and those over a white base at that, and at least 15-20 min purge time between coats, increasing the purge time as film builds. The surfacing that's usually desired with a custom lacquer finish in a color like that will remove at least 2 coats by the time it's fully surfaced. The white base also helps insure a consistent and clean color. The sanding I recommended after the first color application isn't required at all. If the color/texture/finish is acceptable then have at it, keep going. I offered that as a way toward something superior, more in line with an ultimate color/clear application. It's well worth the effort, maybe not on a daily or 'knock around' car, but if one's willing to commit the time and effort the results almost defy words. How? Open the can of paint and stir it from the bottom up, lightly, just enough to "float" the color and metallic components to the top. There's no texture, no peel, no bumps or build up in the color, just a wet and almost pure look to it. Nobody can lay it out like that AND achieve enough coverage without smoothing out the base that was 1st applied. Note that the following steps required call for a final light and wet application, carefully applied over the flat and prepared surface. THIS APPROACH IS ONLY FOR METALLIC COLORS. It's not required, not found in any books or data sheets, but there's a few fairly ultimate finishers out there that know it when they see it and do the same or similar treatments to their work. The nature of modern lacquers with removal of trace metals, lower VOCs, different plasticizers and more science that's not needed for this discussion do indeed demand more than 24 hours to purge all the solvents. If there's one common denominator among the lacquer faithful it's DRYING TIME. The only lacquers known to cure fully in 24 hours were those with a heat activated resin component, and pretty much exclusively used by OEM paint depts in production. It's how GM got away with using lacquer and giving their customers a shine without the labor of a full cut and polish (as done by the Lincoln./Mercury division of Ford until at least 1969). Sand a 24 hour dried surface and stick your nose to it. You don't even have to get close to smell the solvents continue to leave the film. A 1st sanding opens the hardened, or air-cured, top surface to release those still in a typical custom finish. I'm not alone in this approach, it's been done on custom work for decades, hell, generations. If you care to dig around and see a few posted pictures or examples of the end result (I've posted several over the years) feel free. Here's a black lacquer fender we did a few months back, no intermediate sanding like a metallic, just 8 loving coats with 10, 15 and finally 20 minutes purge between coats. Finished on a Friday, we gave it the weekend and 3 more days to "sand open", let it sit another week, then final surfacing and polish. Looks ok I think. It's a big file so zoom in if you like.
I started with lacquers back in the late 70's, and agree with Highlander (as usual!) You have to distinguish between instructions for painting, which were meant for the body shop/collision trade, as opposed to doing a custom show paint job. No instructions available there! His tips are more toward perfecting a lacquer finish, not shooting a "grocery getter".
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