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Technical metal primer question please.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by ned5049, Apr 29, 2020.

  1. ned5049
    Joined: May 9, 2009
    Posts: 400

    ned5049
    Member

    Quick question about priming former rusted metal. I'm planning to clean this trunk floor with a wire cup. Should I use an etch primer or a 2k epoxy after cleaning? Thank you any help. Ned 20200429_190302 (1).jpg
     
  2. john worden
    Joined: Nov 14, 2007
    Posts: 1,693

    john worden
    Member
    from iowa

    After wire brush and if there is no perforation use Rust Mort according to directions and follow with Epoxy primer applied as a sealer followed with color.
     
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  3. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 7,396

    anthony myrick
    Member

    ^^^^ what he said.
    If you caint remove all the rust, use a quality converter. Follow the directions.
    Then treat as normal.
    I don’t think I would use an etch over it.
     
    john worden likes this.
  4. Pats55
    Joined: Apr 29, 2013
    Posts: 512

    Pats55
    Member
    from NJ

    I would suggest a good wire wheel and then treat it with phosphoric acid solution that would dissolve the remaining rust and leave a zinc phosphate coating. I would then prime it with the aluminum pigmented moisture cured primer sealer surfacer 2 coats. You could then use an epoxy primer and topcoat. You can skip the epoxy primer and go straight to a topcoat of any kind. I call this the double whammy. I've removed the rust ,I've treated it then I prime it with an airtight primer that will do upwards of 8000 hours of salt spray. There's nothing more humanly possible, that I know of, to prevent the rust from returning. Ths system is widely used along the coastline with great success
     
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  5. ned5049
    Joined: May 9, 2009
    Posts: 400

    ned5049
    Member

    This floor is solid with no perforation. The photo makes it look worse. I've got por15 and rustoleum spray rust converter. Didn't know how much adhesion the spray would give for a topcoat.
     
  6. john worden
    Joined: Nov 14, 2007
    Posts: 1,693

    john worden
    Member
    from iowa

    Since you have POR 15 I would use their complete system. It's good stuff.
     
  7. indyjps
    Joined: Feb 21, 2007
    Posts: 4,125

    indyjps
    Member

    Ive become a big user of citric acid for derusting.
    If that floor holds water, I'd mix up citric acid (2-3 oz per gallon), let it work its magic for 24 hours, neutralize with baking soda water, wash with soap and water which is a base and will further neutralize.

    If you can kill the rust with an acid conversion, theres no need for specialty/ converter/voodoo paints.
    Ive used por 15 and others, all have let me down / failed over time.
     
  8. ned5049
    Joined: May 9, 2009
    Posts: 400

    ned5049
    Member

    Good idea. I'm going to do that. The floor is sound. Should hold it. Thank you
     
  9. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,199

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    POR-15 wants to be applied over rust. I know, couterintuative right? But the reality is it uses rust to convert to a permanent coating and gets even stronger with moisture. It bonds well to rough surfaces as well or blasted/etched metal. As long as all the loose crumbs are gone you're good to go. I have stuff out there 20 years old and it hasn't even flinched. The downside is topcoating and dry times. You'll go through 3 times the number of scuff pads getting it ready for paint because after a few days it's that hard. And don't forget to keep it off the can's edge or you'll never get it opened back up. And wear your rubber gloves. And DON'T SPRAY IT. I've heard all kinds of "...and I sprayed it with no problem..." stories. Fuck that, it's too toxic and will stick to everything, FOREVER, because of the long dry times and the overspray is WET. I tried their primer designed to go over the base -15 stuff. Never again. Any other paint/pimer/sealer will lift it like old Rustoleum enamel. Scuff it good and go with a conventional means of finish, or after the scuff go right to the splatter treatment if that's the end result, but not the water base stuff. Just an FYI, good luck.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  10. Pats55
    Joined: Apr 29, 2013
    Posts: 512

    Pats55
    Member
    from NJ

    Well you might want to take a minute to read the blog and rant that I write. I've been involved in industrial coatings for 32 years. A lot of these coatings are concrete and wood floor sealer with pigment added to it. Concrete and wood breathes and when metal breathes it rusts. That is your voodoo paint My blog is linked to the mastercoat website.
     
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  11. buick bill
    Joined: Dec 18, 2008
    Posts: 509

    buick bill
    Member
    from yreka;ca

    ill die before I EVER use por15 again ! spent days repairing a rusted roof.removed replaced repaird all rust .used por 15 for added insurance . installed new vinyl top and it looked grt until the next summer ,when it bubbled up in several spots . ive done the same with laq primer and synthetic enamel and still good . urethane with no primer .same results. rustoleum /por15 both just a name .
     
  12. Pats55
    Joined: Apr 29, 2013
    Posts: 512

    Pats55
    Member
    from NJ

    That really sucks and I'm sorry you had to face that situation. That's the power of advertising. I spent 20 years and shows looking at the same faces every year never had those kind of problems. There is just so much misinformation about these types of paint it's criminal. Do you know that there are no industrial coatings companies that make a moisture cured with color and clear that are sold for metal. This is usually sold as a concrete floor coating. This is the only hobby where it sold as a rust preventative.The only moisture cured rust preventative that is successful is the aluminum pigmented primer surfacer. This coating has a nice toothy surface for paint to adhere and sands to a feather edge and is sunlight stable It's the industry standard
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2020
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  13. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,199

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    It seems the majority of 'POR' type products come from NJ. Hirsch has his miracle paint, POR is there, Mastercoat, and some that have come and gone over the years. I always assumed it had something to do with some special needs of coastal environments. Just a guess, and the thought of a concrete/wood product is also intriguing. GM did a test of several such coatings to address surface rust repairs on frames for warranty claims. Sadly I no longer recall who's stuff passed the rigorous testing but it was off the charts good. Past all that, the worse thing to do is overthink the idea. Follow directions, don't fall into "Some's good so more's better" thoughts, and try to practice the best cleaning before, during and after. If using a power wire brush don't dig too hard. The tips of the wires can actually get hot enough to deposit a thin film of metal scale onto your clean steel and nothing will stick to that shit. Let the wire edges do the work, and wear a respirator. Rust dust will fuck up your taste buds for a day or 2. :eek:
     
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  14. ned5049
    Joined: May 9, 2009
    Posts: 400

    ned5049
    Member

    Thanks to all of your advice. I'm thinking the wire cup would probably be too agressive. Think maybe some course roll locks or a slap disc could clean it up ok. Was going to paint the floor the exterior color even though it will be covered. Once I get it clean I can see what it will need. And, yes , rust dust sucks! Thanks again
     
  15. indyjps
    Joined: Feb 21, 2007
    Posts: 4,125

    indyjps
    Member

    Send the link. Always looking to learn more.

    Ill clarify my sarcastic comment about voodoo coatings ( rust converters for hobby use). Painting over rust is a fucking horrible idea, while some industrial conditions require it. Home auto restoration doesnt. Trying to use a coating to circumvent good prep is unnecessary and a bad idea.
     
  16. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 7,396

    anthony myrick
    Member

    The oil based rusty metal primers have worked well for me.
    Just finished up a chassis. Degreased, wire brushed. Rusty metal primer, wait 24 hours then top coat with semi black oil paint.
    I have used this on stuff around the house with good results.
    Used products like rust mort as well. No issues.
    Looking into some of the industrial coatings currently.
    Not everything can be dipped or blasted. I have a 56 wagon that has the surface rust in the roof from GM not painting it. I would not want that blasted.
    Looking at either a rust mort type product or an industrial primer designed for similar.
    I have also had bad experiences with por15. The rusty metal oil based primers have held up better. I have tractor pieces sitting out in the weather with that stuff on it and it’s held up great.
    For the light rust in the OPs floor pan, a quality converter followed by an epoxy.
    I am now curious about the products suggested by @Pats55.
     
  17. Pats55
    Joined: Apr 29, 2013
    Posts: 512

    Pats55
    Member
    from NJ

    these type of coatings I look for and try to bring into the hobby so our work will last a little longer than normal
     

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    Last edited: May 1, 2020
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  18. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 7,396

    anthony myrick
    Member

    I have looked at some anti graffiti clears. Sherman Williams has some.
    Paint Guru here also has one.
    I was looking into industrial primers for rust treatment.
    Been looking at some PPG industrial stuff. I use their industrial epoxy and prefer it over the automotive epoxy.
     
  19. Pats55
    Joined: Apr 29, 2013
    Posts: 512

    Pats55
    Member
    from NJ

    Anthony I love working with industrial coatings companies. I was lucky to team up with people are also that were involved in auto restoration in the coatings industry. What I have found that the pricing with the smaller independent companies was much better than dealing with the major industrial paint companies like Sherman Williams.I also got to modify a lot of formulations make them more user-friendly Sadly are all being brought up by the majors and then closed up. I've seen a lot of them come and go in the last 20 years.
     
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