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Mechanical fuel injection, son wants to learn, and yeah, me too

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by chopperimpala, Aug 28, 2012.

  1. Ken Carvalho
    Joined: Dec 22, 2004
    Posts: 1,561

    Ken Carvalho
    Member

    My son and I had our differences several years ago (like we all did with our fathers) he knew it all, hated my "hot rod" and "Low Rider" interests, moved out, and got into Honda's!
    Now 3 or 4 years later he is "coming around" visiting more, and is realizing I was just teaching him how to be a responsible kid and was not being a dick.
    Sooo, here is where I am at...I have been building my '32 Ford sedan, I chopped it, channelled it, etc. and bla bla bla.
    But in my back yard I have a decent '56 Ford 2 door Customline, and he is showing great interest in it. He does drag race his Honda, so he is into the car scene, but just wasn't into my type of cars. We got to talking, and he said he would like to drag race that '56. I have no problem with it, and told him I will supply the car and as much expertise as possible BUT, it has to be built right, safely, and NOT half assed, and we will split (but I know I will pay for most of it because it is MY car) the engine/trans building costs. It's the 460 out of my Drag Boat, and probably a C-6.
    Here is where to me, it turned for the better... He would like to do a nostalgia build on it, and wants to run Mechanical fuel injection. We tossed around the idea of a blower set up, but I think it would be a little easier to "dip our toes" into it with maybe a Hilborn/ Enderle/ or Kinsler stack style of injection set up?
    I love those things, have oooed and awwed from at them from a far, but have never actually thought I would be able to get my hands dirty with them.
    So, how and where should we BOTH start, as in books, videos (for learning, not just watching the races) or a knowledgeable website?
    I have searched and watched a few YouTube video's from Hilborn and some "average joe" builds, but really want to read up on this and have him do the same so we have a good understanding of it.
    Yes, I know, you die hards have been doing this as a LIFESTYLE and have learned a lot from trial and error, and I am not looking to steal any secrets, but like my '32, I just never thought the opportunity would present itself!!
    I understand the fuel pump and loop system principle, I realize you put the smaller "pills" in for a bigger shot/pressure of fuel to the injectors, I understand the linkage/and butterfly adjustment practices, and things like that, but I don't understand a couple or things...first, what exactly does the --BARREL VALVE-- do? Secondly that fuel is being shot thru the injector as a "hard" liquid, ie. it is not being atomized like in a carburetor, so how is it firing off? I have always understood that it is the atomization of the fuel that actually is ignited by the plugs.
    Anyways, after this long assed post if you have stuck around with me, can you steer me in the direction of LEARNING what I need to learn.
    If it wasn't so much as to be finally "breaking the anguish" of the issues between me and my son, I wouldn't be trying to learn this and would still just enjoy it "from a far" but If this can bring back a bond between my son and I, I am going to try as hard as possible to do it.
    Thanks, Ken
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2012
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  2. LZ
    Joined: Sep 9, 2007
    Posts: 618

    LZ
    Member

  3. Not to rain on your parade, but if you go with Hilborn, Enderle or other mechanical injection. You end up sending these folks your injectors and pump along with your engine specs. In return you get a tuned /flowed system ready to bolt on.

    Very little tuning, a pill size, riching, or leaning at the barrel valve.

    Read up on fuel supply demand, this will determine pump size. I am running a Hilborn Two Port on a Blown SBC. The folks at Hilborn determined what pipe size was needed. Sent them the pump and injectors. Two weeks later got a system setup and bolted it on.
     
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  4. Ken Carvalho
    Joined: Dec 22, 2004
    Posts: 1,561

    Ken Carvalho
    Member

    Don't worry about "raining on my parade" I want real, truthfull answers! I know it can be done, I just want to go about it the correct way. I don't have any aspirations on winning races and becoming the next John Force. I just really want to have fun with my son, and have a common ground with him to have fun together.
     
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  5. The nozzles atomize the fuel.They are different sizes,based on the fuel used,and volume of the cylinder.The barrel valve allows the engine to idle.From idle to full fuel flow,the rotation is about 18 degrees
     
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  6. rcktscientist
    Joined: Jan 13, 2010
    Posts: 81

    rcktscientist
    Member
    from San Diego

    I built my first flow bench in 1983 to understand and flow injectors. I have since moved to EFI mostly for the street and Bonneville, but still love tuning the mechanical system on my rail. There are books on the subject but the best tutorial I have found is from Kinsler. Order the Catalog and it comes with a wealth of information on what the pills, high speed, idle bypass, etc. does. Once you really understand what happens when you change the many variables you can start to tune. For the street you would probably want a surge tank and a more driveable spool for your barrel valve. Jim at Enderle can grind one for you, as can Hilborn, Kinsler, etc.

    Good luck!
     
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  7. rayd
    Joined: Mar 25, 2007
    Posts: 35

    rayd
    Member
    1. A-D Truckers

    I


    Posted from the TJJ App for iPhone & iPad
     
  8. rayd
    Joined: Mar 25, 2007
    Posts: 35

    rayd
    Member
    1. A-D Truckers

    Damn - hit the wrong button.

    I used HRE when I was setting up my injected sbc the first time. Really learned a lot and got it running great. Would highly recommend them.

    Good luck and let us know how it goes.

    Ray


    Posted from the TJJ App for iPhone & iPad
     
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  9. afaulk
    Joined: Jul 20, 2011
    Posts: 1,189

    afaulk
    Member

    I run an Enderle hat on a blown alky setup. I bought the system from Good Vibrations in so. cal. It was pretty darn simple to learn (the basics). When I have a question Enderle is just a phone call away and the only problem I've had is trying to figure out what to do with all the HP. I honestly believe the blown alky deal is no more difficult than injection alone. Good luck!
     
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  10. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 9,820

    RichFox
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    My friend Al Liest built his own flow bench. Runs the pump in his Bridgport. He has the idea that raising the pressure and reducing the nozzle size so that you flow the same amount, will better atomize the fuel. Sounds good. But he was running 7.0s in a 6.9 class.
     
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  11. Ken Carvalho
    Joined: Dec 22, 2004
    Posts: 1,561

    Ken Carvalho
    Member

    I am also definitely NOT opposed to learning from fellow HAMBers, who know the subject also.
     
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  12. H.G. Wells
    Joined: Mar 11, 2006
    Posts: 386

    H.G. Wells
    Member

    As rocket scientist said the Kinsler catalog has a wealth of info. Getting someone to set up a baseline tune will make the process much more enjoyable. I use Spud Miller at Fuel Injection Enterprise. He set up my last on on the blown car in my avitar and hit it spot on.

    I have also talked to Mike at Alky Digger in Nashville and he is very good at set ups for race and street, though I think he uses Spud to flow his pumps also.

    My biggest stumbeling block was changing my thought process. Once you realize these tune like a diesel and the flow is based on the fuel you RETURN to the tank and not what goes into the motor it all makes sense.

    These do not tune like a Holley.

    The idea of high pressure small nozzles is not wrong, just not the way I do it for one simple reason. Any tiny impurity plugs a nozzle. I am a freak about running clean fuel (sold race gas for a living) and still run a big enough nozzle that I am not pulling it at a race to clean. Not wrong, just different. I also run a bigger pump than I need with the thought that when it start to deteriorate it will stil flow enough to get the job done.
     
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  13. PackardV8
    Joined: Jun 7, 2007
    Posts: 872

    PackardV8
    Member

    This is taking our newbie OP way out into the bushes, but as always, Rich is there with good info. The history of fuel injection has been ever-rising pressures. The TBI ran 8-12 PSI, the EFI ran 40 PSI and today's DI runs many thousands of pounds of pressure. With learning how to produce, deliver and control each increase in pressure comes more horsepower and greater efficiency.

    Bottom line for your question - lot's of good reasons why and none why not?

    jack vines
     
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  14. jkeesey
    Joined: Oct 12, 2011
    Posts: 652

    jkeesey
    Member

    I don't know what your local scene is but all the local dirt track guys run naturally aperated hilborn style injection set ups. These guys also can teach you how and sell you old parts they don't use anymore.
     
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  15. Vandy
    Joined: Nov 15, 2009
    Posts: 368

    Vandy
    Member
    from L.A. Ca

    Try Szabo publishing My good friend Bob did a very good job with his books & they will be a tool you will use over & over. If you go to 460 Ford.com & look in the car buildup forum for top fuel dragster build. You can see what I built for my 460.
    Van
     
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  16. just to throw this out there...

    i know you're probably looking at a stack injector set-up, and that's great. my dad ran them from the early 70's on nitro through the 80's on alcohol on our funny car, altered and dragster. its a great set up, good looking and fun to play with.

    however, these days we run a flying toilet ( www.ronsfuel.com ) on alcohol.
    its basically a throttle body on a single plane hi-rise manifold, drilled for port injection.
    its super simple, and has been really reliable and consistent on our 8.60 altered.

    we have ours set up to be completely self starting and i dig it to the max. relatively inexpensive and excellent customer service. we have a couple sets of nozzles and a box of pills, but we've been on the same set of nozzles for years and just use the pills to adjust for relative atmospheric conditions. car runs tight numbers.
     
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  17. Race@Rockets
    Joined: May 15, 2011
    Posts: 73

    Race@Rockets
    Member

    I'm with you Ken! I am on my own adeventure "learnig" mechanical injection...Your doing it right, educate yourself before you start buying parts! I bought my injector before doing any research and lucked out, so far so good, but before I buy anything else I was warned by the elders of the tribe to get a Kinsler catalog. I have met some great people so far with lots of good info. Have fun and good luck! Race
     
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  18. 1940 Willys Coupe
    Joined: Oct 12, 2006
    Posts: 337

    1940 Willys Coupe
    Member
    from Texas

    Concering Mechanical Fuel Injection, alot has been talked about and discussed here on the Hamb. Do a search and type in mechanical fuel injection and the world of fuel injection is at your finger tips.
    I run Hilborn Mechanical Fuel Injection on my 301 Chev. small block that is in my my 40 Willys coupe and I drive it on the street with NO electronics what so ever. Took me a while to get it dialed in but when I had a problem I went to HAMB and with that problem and ALWAYS got an answer. Couldn't have got my deal going with out the HAMB and the people who helped me
    This is what the HAMB is all about. Ask and you shall receive!

    Good Luck!

    1940 Willys Coupe
     
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  19. 1940 Willys Coupe
    Joined: Oct 12, 2006
    Posts: 337

    1940 Willys Coupe
    Member
    from Texas

  20. cooljunk
    Joined: Dec 18, 2007
    Posts: 423

    cooljunk
    Member

  21. Pedal Power
    Joined: May 29, 2009
    Posts: 11

    Pedal Power
    Member

    Looks like you guys know your stuff as soon as I get some free time I'm getting this out :D



    [​IMG]
     
  22. jfrolka
    Joined: Oct 4, 2007
    Posts: 897

    jfrolka
    Member

    You and your son will have a blast with the mechanical injection setup.

    My Dad and I do not have much racing experience and are not heavily educated in building motors. When we took a dip into drag racing we eventually bought a complete Enderle injector hat and tunnel ram. It was setup for our 540" BBC and also for GAS! Out of the box it was an easy install and ran the number we wanted on the first pass. Jim at Enderle is da man and I recommend him to anyone. We had our first hiccup and after a thorough tear down and lots of head scratching we had a little friendly help and insight from Dave Tuttle. Come to find out Dave had some injected gas experience and he taught us a neat barrel valve trick without looking at anything else. It has been largely successful and givin us a very consistent racecar.

    If I were you I would call Jim over at Enderle Fuel Injection in Simi Valley, Ca. He is a wealth of info, very sharp and a gentlemen to do business with.

    Enjoy your new racing endeavor, they are great memories as a Father/son effort.
     
  23. mopacltd
    Joined: Nov 11, 2008
    Posts: 772

    mopacltd
    Member

    I know this is an old thread, but I am looking to put my stack injection on gas and installing it on the 426 Hemi in my Model A to drive on the street. Any help is very much appreciated.
     
  24. tpw35
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 312

    tpw35
    Member

    contact alkydigger 615-457-3192, they have offered the best support for us so far.
     
  25. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 2,873

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

    The issue you will have is that the fuel injection (if running gas) has no accelerator pump, so in tuning that aspect so it becomes drivable is a chore. On a racecar, because most run alcohol , the system can be fat on the idle to get acceleration and not foul the plugs. If you want the look, consider converting the regular nozzles over to a EFI type injectors, Now what some people forget about running stacks with EFI is that there is low vacuum by just plugging into one runner and the 'puter gets confused, you will have to build in a vacuum accumulater to solve this low vacuum problem
     

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